LML 150cc 5 transfers cylinder

[KTy]

Anyone ever tried this cylinder ? I am looking for a torquier replacement of my stock PX125 and I am hesitating between the DR and this LML cylinder...

It is for a daily-rider, mostly city driving...

Bearbeitet 23. Juli 2007 von KTy

[bigbene]

Not tried yet, but according to rumours within the scene the LML cylinders (just as any indian scooter products) are of crap quality.

The 177 class (DR/Polini) provide reliable cylinders, so I´d rather choose one of them- you can use them plug&play, and they'll definetly be torquier than the original one.

[KTy]

Thanks for the advice, but anyway, I have ordered it from my favourite shop... :)

Very attractive price (75? !!) and it also comes with a specific cylinder head with a gasket !

I'll let you know how it is... ;)

[huegenbegger]

thats a nice price!

I never opened a VNB engine , does it fit?

might be a good idea to let it run on a low budget

[BFC]

Anyone ever tried this cylinder ? I am looking for a torquier replacement of my stock PX125 and I am hesitating between the DR and this LML cylinder...

It is for a daily-rider, mostly city driving...

Yeah, I´ve tried it last weekend with some work on piston and kit (exhaust port) together with an elestart flywheel and a Malossi head on a absolutely stock PX 125-Motor with a TFF exhaust and bog standard SI20 carb (mainjet 108, holes in filter) and I´m veeerrrrry satisfied... This Motor gets now a Malossi reed valve and some other work and in my opinion it will be good for nearly cheap cavalli... This kit can with some grinding much revs and good torque I think... And also it gives you much fun for less bucks, but you have to get the kit 1 mm higher and do some work on the exhaust port...

I bought another two 5 transfer LML-kits to prove it with a Malossi- and a GS177-piston, a bigger exhaust port and reed valve... Or just to have cheap replacement kits with some power

My opinion: buy it, spend some work on it and forget Polini and DR!

Bearbeitet 21. April 2007 von BFCDynamo

[BFC]

Not tried yet, but according to rumours within the scene the LML cylinders (just as any indian scooter products) are of crap quality.

The 177 class (DR/Polini) provide reliable cylinders, so I´d rather choose one of them- you can use them plug&play, and they'll definetly be torquier than the original one.

I can´t underwrite this... Good quality for less money... Oder auf Deutsch: Kann ich soo nich unterschreiben, gute Gußqualität und Verarbeitung (keine Lunker, verchromte dünne 1,5mm-Kolbenringe, stabiler und sehr leichter Kolben mit reichlich Fleisch) und viel O-Tuningpotential für schmales...

Und das Ding kann wat, dreht geil hoch und hat ordentlich Durchzuch, braucht aber ein recht kurzes Getriebe (bei mir 21/68er Primär mit 125er Getriebe), á la 166er Malossi und meiner Meinung nach auch noch ne Membran und nen 28er samt RAP, dann geht da richtich was...

Als Tip: Wenn man den LML-Zylinder überarbeitet, sollte man mal den 166er Malle-Kolben ranhalten und beides seinem Motoreninstandsetzer zwecks Hochzeit in die Hand drücken, paßt von den Fenstern her wie angegossen bzw. gemacht dafür...

[KTy]

166 Malossi head ?

Do you know the timing of the LML and of the DR to compare ??

Bearbeitet 22. April 2007 von KTy

[BFC]

166 Malossi head ?

Do you know the timing of the LML and of the DR to compare ??

Yeah, 139/166 Malossi head old type... Or better take the LML reed valve head, it´s central plugged...

LML: not yet, no one knows it... DR: I dont´t know the serial timings ...

[KTy]

Received !

Quality "ok", I will measure timings and rework the ports.

Relatively small exhaust port, 1mm piston rings, nice large transfers, "nice" head with long sparkplug and coper gasket...

[BFC]

Nice barrel, too small exhaust port... Yes, please measure the timings, I built an engine with reed valve, 28 Koso and LML barrel last week...

[KTy]

@BCD:

28mm carb ?? Not too big ?

Did you put a 1mm spacer below the cylinder ? If so, how did you compensate ? (grinded 1mm at the top ?)

If I want a torquey engine, with SI24 and stock exhaust, what could be a target timing for admission and exhaust port, and also in terms of Time-Areas ? Any advices ?

Bearbeitet 30. April 2007 von KTy

[BFC]

@BCD:

28mm carb ?? Not too big ?

Did you put a 1mm spacer below the cylinder ? If so, how did you compensate ? (grinded 1mm at the top ?)

If I want a torquey engine, with SI24 and stock exhaust, what could be a target timing for admission and exhaust port, and also in terms of Time-Areas ? Any advices ?

Yeah, at beginning just only a 28 DO, after bore out for a GS177-Piston a 30-35mm carb...

And yes, I put the 1mm spacer below the barrel but without grinding at the top, just put a Malossi head on it...

I think 176°/124°/26° will be the right timing for fast road riding... And grinding the exhaust port to 65% bore...

[KTy]

With a 1mm spacer, isn't your squish a little bit large ??

[BFC]

With a 1mm spacer, isn't your squish a little bit large ??

Yeeeesssss, its fookin big... But in some weeks I let it grind off on the top after bore out to the Malossi or GS177 piston... The problem is the head: I cant get the LML head here in Berlin so I took the Malossi one for more compression coz I had no head in the package...

Did you measure now?

[BFC]

Hi KTy,

I have measured 170/120 with 0,8mm spacer yesterday and I think that the standard timings are 150/110...

[KTy]

Hallo Leute

So I have mounted the cylinder on my engine. I have chamfered all the ports, enlarged by approx. 2+2mm the exhaust port width and 1mm height.

And that's it ! No work on the cases, this is my daily scooter, I had no time to correctly adjust the transfers and I did not want to take the risk to do it while the engine is in the frame.

My carb is a SI24/24 for 200er, with 160 BE3 110 and 55/160. Ignition is still on IT (18°). My crankshaft is anticipated.

Engine is running great since the beginning, it revs not really higher than the PX125 (it seems mainjet 110 is too much... I find it strange), but it revs much faster thanks to the 1mm chromed rings. It has also lots of torque, for instance I like to start in 2nd gear, and then rapidly go in 4th, very pleasant for city driving. Compression is quite high, you can feel it on the kick !

The only downside so far is that I hear some small mechanical knock, but it cannot be "knocking" due to timing.

First I thought it was the piston/cylinder too big tolerance, then I thought it could be the piston bearing/piston axe, but actually I start to believe that what I hear is the vibration of the cylinder winglets... I have to check...

So, besides that, I find the experience very positive so far

If you can find the complete cylinder at a reasonable price, then it is definitely worth it

By the way, if one can give me the complete 5T LML 150 carb setup and timing, I would be interested...

[KTy]

I would be really interested in the official LML setup because....

I also have knocking issue !

My story is a little bit long, sorry for that....

I have this metallic sound that I believe is related to winglett vibration and/or piston tolerance, AND I discovered on Saturday that I also had real knocking !

So, on Saturday, hot day, around 30°C on the air, 2 on the scooter, I was running 160-BE5-110. After 15 minutes ride, I opened full throttle in 4th (-> Heavy load), I drove like this for 2-3 minutes ( I was still giving the engine a break from time to time), but this time I could here a stronger metallic sound. I felt that the engine was not pushing as strong as before, so I engaged the clutch... and it stalled almost immediately .

I was freewheeling for 100m, then I re-engaged the clutch and engine started again, then stalled. I stopped, waited 15s, and then it started again, no problem.

I looked at the spark-plug: ligth brown-colour with lots of metal deposit -> knocking !!

Back home, I checked the stator setting, it was sligthly after IT, around 19°. For safety, I turned it clockwise to the maximum, around 15-16° I believe and I put a 160-BE3-118 main jet. I also realized that my air manifold (carb-to-frame) was sligthly not well put, so I fixed that. I thought it was now...

But no...

Yesterday, much cooler day, on my way home in the night (15°C on the air, still 2 people on the scoot), I drove 4 km at 70% throttle, then I attacked a light hill for 5-700m, then 200m after it, while in the descent, I engaged again the clutch to make the engine breeze a little bit, and... surprise... it stalled again (Even nicer when you're on a road forest at 22h with no moonlight !!)

Soooooooooooooo,

Here are some facts and assumptions, please discuss:

* Engine has always high compression, so I do not believe there is an air leak at the cylinder head

* Does not seem to burn the gear oil, so clutch-seal ring should be fine

* It has a very stable idling and engine drop RPM quite fast, no oil leak on the stator side, so the other seal-ring should be fine

* I am running Unleaded fuel, 91 Octane..... Could this be the problem ?? I'll switch to 95 to see...

* Could this be that compression is too high because LML cases are slightly higher than PX ? I am saying that because squish seems very low (I will measure tonight): At TDC the piston is really leveling the top of the cylinder, and the cylinder head squish band is not that high...

* Could this be that piston touch the cylinder head ?

* I have a standard Piaggio PX gasket; Could the LML be thicker ??

* Should I change my jetting ? 140 main air jet ? Spark is brown...

Before blaming the cylinder kit quality I would like to investigate any other option...

Thanks for your help !

Bearbeitet 23. Juli 2007 von KTy

[KTy]

I have measured 170/120 with 0,8mm spacer yesterday and I think that the standard timings are 150/110...

Where can I get a 0,8mm spacer/gasket for PX ?

[BFC]

Where can I get a 0,8mm spacer/gasket for PX ?

Take that:

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/pages/detai...d76a9914e71ad30

Or write Stahlfix a mail (no PM...)

By the way, my 3 port Bajaj-engine runs like a devil with this barrel (machined by myself...), 22° ignition fix timing, a Polini intake, 28 PHBH, TFF exhaust and some chemical metal (Weicon Titanium 115 repair stick) on the case... Very fast, no problem to get the bike over 110 on the speedo

And I personally think you have to take 95 octane fuel with good fully synthetic oil...

Bearbeitet 23. Juli 2007 von BFCDynamo

[KTy]

Ok, thanks !

The engine you're refering too is also an LML 5 transfers ?

Do you think that too much compression + unleaded fuel 91 octane could be the problem ??

Bearbeitet 23. Juli 2007 von KTy

[BFC]

Ok, thanks !

The engine you're refering too is also an LML 5 transfers ?

Do you think that too much compression + unleaded fuel 91 octane could be the problem ??

No, it´s a chemical metal Bajaj Chetak 125 3 port engine with much grinding... I´m searching like a weazle for a LML 5 port engine... Yeah, I think 91 octane and too much compression could be the problem, not the ignition timing... Some minutes ago I filled in Super Plus (98 octane...) and in my opinion the engine runs better... So you better fill in 95 octane with 1:50 fully synthetic and the problems should be eliminated I think... And maybe a head gasket...

With this barrel I rode a 2 port Bajaj engine with a 20/20 SI carb an a bog standard PX exhaust with no problem and just 3,5 L/100 km... The max speed was about 100-105 all day long with no problems and brilliant acceleration... After putting the barrel on my fresh rebuilt engine the max speed is about 120 on the Sprint speedo and real speed was 110 or a little more... I tested it 1 hour ago on a big street in my city...

[polinist]

Thanks for the advice, but anyway, I have ordered it from my favourite shop... :)

Very attractive price (75? !!) and it also comes with a specific cylinder head with a gasket !

I'll let you know how it is... ;)

Where do you buy it for ? 75 including head??

[BFC]

Where do you buy it for ? 75 including head??

Mit Kopf ist das o.k. ... Bräuchte noch drei LML-Köpfe, so beisewäh... Hab hier in B. nur drei Zylinder ohne Köpfe aufgetrieben... Dafür aber für nen seeeeehr fairen Kurs...

[BFC]

@KTy: The next step will be the GS-piston and a bigger exhaust port...

[BFC]

thats a nice price!

I never opened a VNB engine , does it fit?

might be a good idea to let it run on a low budget

Jepp, next time I build a 2 port T4 engine with this barrel for a customer... The barrel gets some grinding at the exhaust port and the piston and a longer inlet time at the crank and a rebuild, so it´s ready for rumble...

Auf Deutsch: Ich mach die Tage nen T4-Motor mit dem Zylinder für einen unserer Kunden, der bekommt ne leichte Kur am Auslaß, dem Kolben und an der Einlaßsteuerzeit der Welle, feddich, nix wildes... Läuft dann mit dem Serienversager und Serienauspuff und geht trotzdem noch logger über 100 und braucht kaum Sprit...

Bearbeitet 23. Juli 2007 von BFCDynamo

[KTy]

No comment

I now better understand where comes the metallic sound and the material on my sparkplug !!

So be careful, this is a stock LML 5 transfers cylinder with specific head on a stock Piaggio PX125E cases with normal (57mm) crankshaft... One need to mount at least a 1mm gasket !!

This is surprising thought....

What should be the minimum squish for this kind of configuration ? I believe 1,5mm ?

Bearbeitet 23. Juli 2007 von KTy

[polinist]

Und wo gibts die LML150 zu den genannten 75 Teuros???

[KTy]

Ich habe von meinen freunden von http://seventies-scooter-pieces.com/ eingekauft

Aber der Preis hat geändert, weil die Market (... ) ist jetzt teuer

Edit: Heute habe Ich gelernt das der LML Dichtung Zylinderfuß ist dicker als Piaggio !

Bearbeitet 24. Juli 2007 von KTy

[BFC]

Ich habe von meinen freunden von http://seventies-scooter-pieces.com/ eingekauft

Aber der Preis hat geändert, weil die Market (... ) ist jetzt teuer

Edit: Heute habe Ich gelernt das der LML Dichtung Zylinderfuß ist dicker als Piaggio !

Immer nochn fairer Preis für nen guten Zylinder... Also liege ich mit dem höherlegen des Zylinders um 1 mm gar nicht soo daneben...

[KTy]

So,

I asked a shop selling LML base gasket for the 5 transfers cylinders and it is about 0,6mm thick... It still does not explain the low squish... If I use this gasket (not aluminum) I expect a squish around 0,8 maximum; This is far too low !!

Maybe the LML cases are different ? Can anyone confirmed this ??

Bearbeitet 27. Juli 2007 von KTy