Prototyp-Aluzylinder

[salih]

danke salih für den super comment!!!

Bitte. Deine Gründe würden mich trotzdem noch interessieren. Oder war das einfach nur ne "aus-dem-Bauch-raus" Ansage?

[scootergangbang]

Bitte. Deine Gründe würden mich trotzdem noch interessieren. Oder war das einfach nur ne "aus-dem-Bauch-raus" Ansage?

I am still working on the details from the starting point so I can post it, but yesterday we fitted a MODIFIED Norri Kerr designed exhaust, than was redesigned to improve overall horse power, and torque.

The cylander remains the same as the previous run, and the only other change is that we now are able to run a 32 mm Koso non power jet model (previously we could not run anything bigger than 28, with a power jet)

I am currently happy with the porting on the cylander, and will leave that for the next few stages, as today the machine shop returned our next prototype part for the reed block, which earlier tests have shown increased torque and power at earlier RPM, although the testing was done with a different exhaust system, I feel very confident that by next Tuesday, we will have 20NM

The next days will involve testing of the opening and duration times of the Reed Petals (although we will not be using carbon reeds), and Wolfi fabricated a new part for me today that makes this stage more simple.

I have a new idea involving the exhaust that I want to try as well, so it's a very busy time for us all at the moment!

Can any one tell me where I can get an exhaust gas temperature sensor from in Germany?

[amazombi]

would you mind calling the norrie kerr pipe you are talking about a hammerzombi? i think that would be much closer to the point. i personally haven't seen any of norries pipes in a long time (safe one), hence i don't think you are being accurate with the names.

for exhaust gas temperature meter try lambretta teile heilbronn. they stock the full range of stage6 gauges, among them a rather decently priced egt.

don't you think that with the sort of power you get at the moment a 32mm carb might be slightly over the top? why don't you try to get the port timing and dimensions right before squeezing out the last bit of power with larger carbs?

where do you have the cylinders cast? vietnam? what's the quality of the casting? the stuff i have seen from there was not always top notch quality.

Bearbeitet 15. November 2007 von amazombi

[scootergangbang]

would you mind calling the norrie kerr pipe you are talking about a hammerzombi? i think that would be much closer to the point. i personally haven't seen any of norries pipes in a long time (safe one), hence i don't think you are being accurate with the names.

for exhaust gas temperature meter try lambretta teile heilbronn. they stock the full range of stage6 gauges, among them a rather decently priced egt.

don't you think that with the sort of power you get at the moment a 32mm carb might be slightly over the top? why don't you try to get the port timing and dimensions right before squeezing out the last bit of power with larger carbs?

where do you have the cylinders cast? vietnam? what's the quality of the casting? the stuff i have seen from there was not always top notch quality.

Thank you for advice reguarding the sensor, I will contact them!

In reguards to the carb size, I intially was using a 26mm round slide Dellorto, and recieved very poor results. So decided to move to a carb type that I was familure with (sometimes called a "D slide")

THe Koso was not my first choice, but was easily available.

THe attached graphs show the lower figure (RED) using the same exhaust,(A redeveloped PM) ignition timing,and cylander, and only changing the Carburettor.

The Green line is with the correct needle, main jet, and ignition timing.

The cylander has porting as per the origonal, and squish of 1.7mm

It is important to remeber that this cylander is being developed with a "Plug and Play" road rider in mind, and we need to find a compromise on almost every factor, so the customer can chose a carburettor, exhaust and ignition that they want, and still be rideable.

I would like an opportunity to go "Full noise" on the tuning, but at this tage, that is not really viable.

In reguards to the casting, Yes, they are cast in Vietnam, it is simply a decision based on cost, given the low volume demands (currently).

I agree that there are some very poor quality items coming from there, but this cylander is not poor quality. Being only a prototype, it would be on par with most any other.

I would like too see more Zinc used in the melt (just to get sharper lines)

I understand your desire to call the chamber the "HammerZombi", and respect your hard work and effort, just as much as I respect Norri Kerr's efforts.

I just don't want to start a war that no one wins.

In respect for your work, I will call it A "Modified Hammer Zombi"

[amazombi]

ok, i see. what exactly have you modified on the pipes? on the video i saw a pipe that looked strangely familiar to an exhaust i have christened franz; you are referring to a redeveloped pm, is that the gps then? i mean from what i see a lot of things around your cylinder appear to be redeveloped, which to the uneducated beholder spells out as "copies made in vietnam". apparently you are doing promotion works here (and rightly so, any new product for old vespas deserve it's share of publicity). in my book that's mainly about creating trust in a product to then sell it to joe public. i as a potential buyer therefor have a genuine interest in the authenticity of the product.

why are you running a squish of 1,7mm? anything wrong with the head design?

[gertax]

why does the liner have CVF holes whereas the piston oviously can not make use of these? you know that CVF is patented by malossi, don't you?

[scootergangbang]

ok, i see. what exactly have you modified on the pipes? on the video i saw a pipe that looked strangely familiar to an exhaust i have christened franz; you are referring to a redeveloped pm, is that the gps then? i mean from what i see a lot of things around your cylinder appear to be redeveloped, which to the uneducated beholder spells out as "copies made in vietnam". apparently you are doing promotion works here (and rightly so, any new product for old vespas deserve it's share of publicity). in my book that's mainly about creating trust in a product to then sell it to joe public. i as a potential buyer therefor have a genuine interest in the authenticity of the product.

why are you running a squish of 1,7mm? anything wrong with the head design?

Thank you for your well educated obsevations.

I am sure you are well aware that there are many "redeveloped" prototypes is circultion at the moment. For example, the FALK cylander is obviously a complete "redeveloped" Honda RS125R cylander, coupled with a "redevelped", and "Adapted" Honda RS125R Exhaust, this is easliy identified by several facors, the least of which is the shape of the exhaust.

If any body does not agree with me, then I will prove it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I Know this Bike Very Well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who ever made that cylander/exhaust is very clever, and more intelligent than me, and I have respect for them, but the fact remains, they simply COPIED, AND ADAPTED SOMEONE ELSES WORK. What is wrong with that? That is how we develop technolgy.

You draw reference to the fact that our cylander is a copy of somebody elses? do you have proof of that? Because I disagree!

This cylander has a exhaust shape that has NEVER been in production, as well as a piston that has never been in production.,

I know this, because we developed them!

yet, it still makes over 21 PS, and has no welding on the crankcase, and currently uses and old ignition that was in the box of parts that I built the engine from, and a carburettor that is of unknown origin (maybe Bagdad?)

You also query the spec I gave you of 1.7mm squish.

Initialy, when I started this project, I was suspicious of using squish of less that 1.8mm, using "Pump" fuel, so I decided to go the safe rout, and use a low compression ratio, as well as a low squish. (Because, of course you know, the two components are releated, but also different)

Now I am happy to run 1.3mm

In my ealier posts, I mentioned that we now run 1.3mm squish, and this is what we now will develop the cylander on, as the fuel available at the pump is now less than 91 octane

Remember that modern two stroke road machines run an average of 2.2 mm squish!

Please remember that

"a raised exhaust port height also raises the Dynamic compression ratio of your engine, reguardless of your squish!"

The formula I have based this cylander porting and squish on is thus:

(Cyl. Vol. + Trapped Vol.) / (Trapped Vol.) = UCCR:1

(I prefer to work in UCCR, rather than CCR whan I work out my port timing.)

It is very important to rember this.

"WHEN THE FLAG DROPS, THE BULL SHIT STOPS!"

And the proof will be a 20 PS cylander, "plug and play", I believe will be available next summer from GPS.

Thank you for responding in English, I really appreciate it!

[scootergangbang]

why does the liner have CVF holes whereas the piston oviously can not make use of these? you know that CVF is patented by malossi, don't you?

(Cyl. Vol. + Trapped Vol.) / (Trapped Vol.) = UCCR:1

Hello!

Please tell me why this piston can not make use of these.

Do you think that if I put a piston in that did not have these holes, I would have more PS?

You cant Pantent Phisical Science factors!

Seriously, please tell me why the holes dont work!

I want to know!

21.5 ps IS GOOD FOR ME!

GNF forever!

[sNoWmaX]

I am sure Gerhard didn`t mean the holes in the piston, he meant the hole in the sliding surface! If the piston goes to its way down to UT, there`s no chance for the gas to flow through the holes (CVF-Malossi-Holes) under the main ports. This only would make a sence, if the piston has holes like a 210`er! There the gas can flow through the piston into the transfers. Your piston instead of that is closed in this area.

My english is not so good and i am drunken, but i hope you understand what i mean.....

Max

[oli-san]

My english is not so good and i am drunken, but i hope you understand what i mean.....

Max

That international language enough, Max.

[ultrabrutalverschimmelt]

Bitte. Deine Gründe würden mich trotzdem noch interessieren. Oder war das einfach nur ne "aus-dem-Bauch-raus" Ansage?

weil mir keiner erzählen kann das er mit nem malle oder polini mit über 20 ps und 140 km/h 50 kilometer vollgas fahren kann ohne das er den zylinder schrottet. sorry das glaube ich einfach nicht. ich meine wir reden hier von vollgas und nicht vollgas durch die stadt heizen sondern landstrasse oder autobahn. das hört sich für mich einfach unglaublich an und wenn du jetzt echt wissen willst was bei nem zylinder kaputt gehen kann dann würd ich mal deinen freund fragen, der hat bestimmt schon einige erfahrung im laufe seiner roller karriere gemacht oder nicht?

@max der ist das schlechte englisch im suff schon uns gewohnt keine sorge

@scootergangbang GNF **lol

Bearbeitet 16. November 2007 von ultrabrutalverschimmelt

[rasputin]

und wenn du jetzt echt wissen willst was bei nem zylinder kaputt gehen kann dann würd ich mal deinen freund fragen, der hat bestimmt schon einige erfahrung im laufe seiner roller karriere gemacht oder nicht?

da muß sie niemanden fragen...julia baut ihre 20-ps-motoren selbst. weder ihre noch gerhards motoren wären mir jemals als defektanfällig aufgefallen. ein gut eingestellter motor geht nicht kaputt, kann man z.b. auf dem nürburgring sehen.

r

[Lord Sinclair]

(Cyl. Vol. + Trapped Vol.) / (Trapped Vol.) = UCCR:1

Hello!

Please tell me why this piston can not make use of these.

Do you think that if I put a piston in that did not have these holes, I would have more PS?

You cant Pantent Phisical Science factors!

Seriously, please tell me why the holes dont work!

I want to know!

21.5 ps IS GOOD FOR ME!

GNF forever!

Hello just reading this thread and have one question:

Is there any possibility for you to write CYLINDER instead of CYLANDER?

Thanks!

[scootergangbang]

I am sure Gerhard didn`t mean the holes in the piston, he meant the hole in the sliding surface! If the piston goes to its way down to UT, there`s no chance for the gas to flow through the holes (CVF-Malossi-Holes) under the main ports. This only would make a sence, if the piston has holes like a 210`er! There the gas can flow through the piston into the transfers. Your piston instead of that is closed in this area.

My english is not so good and i am drunken, but i hope you understand what i mean.....

Max

Ah yes, I am showing my lack of Vespa terminology here!

Also, what I have failed to show you is that the cylinder in the video I posted is totally different to the one I have developed!

The still photos in the clip are very old, and I no longer use that cylander, as it was designed a little poorly for us to work with!

I am very sorry for the confusion guys!

On sunday I will post some pictures of the new cylander!

But check out this!

Also, see attached graph!

[scootergangbang]

Hello just reading this thread and have one question:

Is there any possibility for you to write CYLINDER instead of CYLANDER?

Thanks!

Consider it done!

[oli-san]

22,6 with the 32koso and a franz?

[gertax]

(Cyl. Vol. + Trapped Vol.) / (Trapped Vol.) = UCCR:1

Hello!

Please tell me why this piston can not make use of these.

Do you think that if I put a piston in that did not have these holes, I would have more PS?

You cant Pantent Phisical Science factors!

Seriously, please tell me why the holes dont work!

I want to know!

21.5 ps IS GOOD FOR ME!

GNF forever!

as already stated by max, you can not make use of the holes in the liner if your piston does not have corresponding holes above the piston pin. apart from that, malossi was clever enough to patent this way of enlarging transfer entries long time ago and named it cvf. i don't know if they mind if you use half of their system, but if they do, they can sue the shit out of you. just wanted to point on this, as it would be a pitty if your barrel would never be available to the public because of 2 holes in the liner which have no function anyway.

I am sure you are well aware that there are many "redeveloped" prototypes is circultion at the moment. For example, the FALK cylander is obviously a complete "redeveloped" Honda RS125R cylander, coupled with a "redevelped", and "Adapted" Honda RS125R Exhaust, this is easliy identified by several facors, the least of which is the shape of the exhaust.

If any body does not agree with me, then I will prove it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I Know this Bike Very Well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

please prove that if you can. i would like to know what brought you to this conclusion.

Who ever made that cylander/exhaust is very clever, and more intelligent than me, and I have respect for them, but the fact remains, they simply COPIED, AND ADAPTED SOMEONE ELSES WORK. What is wrong with that? That is how we develop technolgy.

are you serious? this is only what poorly equipped people call 'development'. most others would call that a lame copy exploiting the efforts and hard work of others. besides that, if everybody does so, where does the original come from?

Remember that modern two stroke road machines run an average of 2.2 mm squish!

Please remember that

"a raised exhaust port height also raises the Dynamic compression ratio of your engine, reguardless of your squish!"

The formula I have based this cylander porting and squish on is thus:

(Cyl. Vol. + Trapped Vol.) / (Trapped Vol.) = UCCR:1

(I prefer to work in UCCR, rather than CCR whan I work out my port timing.)

It is very important to rember this.

please note that a raised exhaust port in fact LOWERS ccr. which modern 2stroke road machines using 2,2mm of squish clearance do you refer to?

if i may, i would like to ask another question: which language is your native language?

[Polinizei]

Gerhard is talking about the following Patent:

Malossi Patent

Bearbeitet 16. November 2007 von Polinizei

[steven]

ich finde hier sollte maln bisschen im ton zurückgeschraubt werden.

neil ist auch "nur" der mechaniker, er gibt die dinger nicht in auftrag und damals als der zylinder entworfen wurden, war neil noch gar nicht an bord. von daher glaube ich nicht das er was mit der implementierung des malossipatents am hut hat und genausowenig damit, dass der rest der ingolstädter produktpalette anderen produkten sehr ähnelt.

stattdessen finde ich es ziemlich gut, dass neil hier rede und antwort steht, obwohl es ihm ja ladde sein könnte und ich den praktiken der rollerfabrik auch nicht so gewogen bin.

neil, keep on keepin' it on

Bearbeitet 16. November 2007 von steven

[scootergangbang]

as already stated by max, you can not make use of the holes in the liner if your piston does not have corresponding holes above the piston pin. apart from that, malossi was clever enough to patent this way of enlarging transfer entries long time ago and named it cvf. i don't know if they mind if you use half of their system, but if they do, they can sue the shit out of you. just wanted to point on this, as it would be a pitty if your barrel would never be available to the public because of 2 holes in the liner which have no function anyway.

please prove that if you can. i would like to know what brought you to this conclusion.

are you serious? this is only what poorly equipped people call 'development'. most others would call that a lame copy exploiting the efforts and hard work of others. besides that, if everybody does so, where does the original come from?

please note that a raised exhaust port in fact LOWERS ccr. which modern 2stroke road machines using 2,2mm of squish clearance do you refer to?

if i may, i would like to ask another question: which language is your native language?

Oh, so the German Scooter Nerds are ganging up on the poor Kiwi!

Oh well, I can hack it!

I believe you have a Falk system?

If so, do you recognise the highlighted section here?

[Olli ETS]

@sgb

You are talking about a new and different cylinder development, have you also changed the bore size?

Think 59mm as a standard bore gives not much space for reboring.

Cheers Olli

@mm

Schade, hatte die Hoffnung bei Deinem Editierten würde es bleiben.

Ansonsten geht woanders spielen, hier ist der Technikbereich.

[scootergangbang]

@sgb

You are talking about a new and different cylinder development, have you also changed the bore size?

Think 59mm as a standard bore gives not much space for reboring.

Cheers Olli

@mm

Schade, hatte die Hoffnung bei Deinem Editierten würde es bleiben.

Ansonsten geht woanders spielen, hier ist der Technikbereich.

Yes, the current mock up is 125cc, with enough room for rebore(s)

Obviously there is a huge shortfall in the service life of the current cylinder!

[Olli ETS]

Yes, the current mock up is 125cc, with enough room for rebore(s)

Obviously there is a huge shortfall in the service life of the current cylinder!

Ok, sounds like you are using a bore of ~ 55/ 56mm, or did you think about going more square stroke, like 54x 54mm?

Cheers Olli

[gertax]

Oh, so the German Scooter Nerds are ganging up on the poor Kiwi!

Oh well, I can hack it!

I believe you have a Falk system?

If so, do you recognise the highlighted section here?

i don't have a falc system, but until know i regarded this kind of connection from baffle to tailpipe as quite common. and even if it should be used only on the RS125R pipe, this is nothing that would convince me in believing the utter falc cylinder and pipe are copies. got any more?

besides that, it was not my intention to pick on you, but the fact that you were steadily mistyping the word 'cylinder' made me doubt you were a native kiwi. i think you understand that, don't you.

one last hint, if you raise the room temperature in the p4 software above the current 80°C, you can make even more power!

auf deutsch: die raumtemperatur am P4 war auf 80°C eingestellt, dadurch wurde der korrekturfaktor auf unnatürlich hohe werte geschraubt, die 20+ kurven sind fake.

[steven]

i don't have a falc system, but until know i regarded this kind of connection from baffle to tailpipe as quite common. and even if it should be used only on the RS125R pipe, this is nothing that would convince me in believing the utter falc cylinder and pipe are copies. got any more?

besides that, it was not my intention to pick on you, but the fact that you were steadily mistyping the word 'cylinder' made me doubt you were a native kiwi. i think you understand that, don't you.

one last hint, if you raise the room temperature in the p4 software above the current 80°C, you can make even more power!

auf deutsch: die raumtemperatur am P4 war auf 80°C eingestellt, dadurch wurde der korrekturfaktor auf unnatürlich hohe werte geschraubt, die 20+ kurven sind fake.

geil, sieht man das irgendwo in den diagrammen?

[gertax]

geil, sieht man das irgendwo in den diagrammen?

das ist nicht das einzige

[2Stroker]

Wenn ich das auf meinen Korrekturfaktor von heute runter breche komm ich auf 19PS.

[oli-san]

demnach dann eher 26PS mit dem alu-cylander?

[Truls221]

I don't want to interrupt in this thread with any details, but I think the vietnamese has a point when he said the many new products on the scooter market are copies from previously developed old products.

I don't see this as a hack as many new developed products also are restorations of old products, sold as new. Just look at many products, not necessarily scooter related, and many other specialist companies. I don't want to mention any names

We also do this in the buissness I am related to in tuning cars. Simply because it would take to much time and be too expensive to fully develop a new product.

To take on another we also have the italian spare parts manufacturers etc. who has reproduced original piaggio spare parts to a lower price,

and not to mention the big scooter dealers, many copied products. And also which I find most funny is a well known exhaust manufacturer that has copied every one of a well know british tuner.

I see this as a result of what Gerhard mentioned, many gifted people are using their skills to develop new products, and many ungifted people have devoted their life to develop new of old products. This is not wrong, when it is stated as reproduced or redeveloped.

In many ways this is a favour, but as we know that many of the vietnamesian developers are doing this purely because of the profit the get making cheaper and poorer quality products.

There will always be copycats around, is there any hints of this in calling a crankshaft modification for S&S style? People copy things even if there is no documentation of its advantages. Is this ungifted people?

Left over from this discussion, fake is not the same as redeveloped.

Vietnamese, you seem to have details of many more products to copy, could you hand over some writings?

cheers

Truls

[amazombi]

@scootergangbang:

are you sure the portlayout of the falc is honda? which year of barrel are you referring to?