Prototyp-Aluzylinder

[BlackPX200]

Meine Herren, lasst das Beer& Chips Gesabbel und bleibt sachlich, sonst wird hier mal ordentlich durchgeputzt und es hagelt Verwarnungen.

[Mike]

Noch was, ich habs schon in nem anderen Topic in Blabla auch schon geschrieben:

Es sind nicht die Ingolstädter ansich, die diese neuerliche Anti-Ingolstadt Welle verursachen, sondern nur einzelne Personen, die vorgeben, für Ingolstadt zu sprechen und mit dummen Äußerungen die Antipathie vieler auf sich ziehen.

Zum Beispiel wenn hier jetzt begonnen wird, alle im Forum als Nerds zu bezeichnen, indem man diese Plattform als German Nerd Forum bezeichnet.

Ich sag das nur einmal: Wenn ich diesen Begriff nochmal hier lese, wird der Betreffende PERMANENT gebannt.

Ich hab so die Schnauze voll von diesem Possegehabe...da könnt ich kotzen.

P.S.: ich hab nichts gegen Tom, er hat mir erst dieses Wochenende netterweise nen Roller aus Novegro mitgebracht.

Übrigens noch ein Hinweis eines Bekannten zu diesem Thema:

Gemäß diesem link würd' ich die hier anwesenden kompetenten Tuner als "Geeks" bezeichnen, die "Nerds" sind die Tuning-Einsteiger, und die "Dorks"... sind "die" ingolstädter.

[scootergangbang]

Noch was, ich habs schon in nem anderen Topic in Blabla auch schon geschrieben:

Es sind nicht die Ingolstädter ansich, die diese neuerliche Anti-Ingolstadt Welle verursachen, sondern nur einzelne Personen, die vorgeben, für Ingolstadt zu sprechen und mit dummen Äußerungen die Antipathie vieler auf sich ziehen.

Zum Beispiel wenn hier jetzt begonnen wird, alle im Forum als Nerds zu bezeichnen, indem man diese Plattform als German Nerd Forum bezeichnet.

Ich sag das nur einmal: Wenn ich diesen Begriff nochmal hier lese, wird der Betreffende PERMANENT gebannt.

Ich hab so die Schnauze voll von diesem Possegehabe...da könnt ich kotzen.

P.S.: ich hab nichts gegen Tom, er hat mir erst dieses Wochenende netterweise nen Roller aus Novegro mitgebracht.

Übrigens noch ein Hinweis eines Bekannten zu diesem Thema:

Ok,

It is too hard for me too reply in German, but with time, I can read the majority of your comments (it lust takes a while!)\

Firstly, I would like to say that nothing insulting was intended by calling it Geman Nerd forum, and was simply "tongue and cheek", and not meant to insult anyone.

A bit of Kiwi humour gone awry I surmise!

To anyone that has taken offence, I appologise wholeheartedly, and will refrain from doing so in the future.

I guess it is a lesson for all, not to let this get personal aye?

I for one will refrain from personal attacks.

I was asked to provide proof that the Falc cylander (for exampe) is simply a development, adapted improved version of other companies work, I provide you with the following examples.

Pic 1, shows a Yamaha inlet port, from the mid 80's

Pic 2 shows a Falc inlet port (sorry, this is the best I can find)

You will notice Startling similarities the shape of the port (with no bridge!)

next, Pic 3 shows a KTM inlet, with Boost ports above the main inlet port (which have absolutly NOTHING to do with the Patent referred too previoulsy!), as well as direct transfer boost ports!

Now, the final pic, is the UNMODIFIED, as "out of the box prototype cylinder" (note spelling!)

note the inlet only "Boost ports" (which in the current cylinder I have changed the angle), no Transfer "Boost ports" (yet) , and bridged inlet, with basic window shape. In the 22hp cylinder, this shape has not been altered at all, and is the same as this picture.

The exhaust port we currently use, is, however very different to this (or the falc), and I will include this development in the latest cylinder design (which by the way, starts on Monday afternoon!)

Bearbeitet 18. November 2007 von scootergangbang

[amazombi]

maybe i'm a bit thick, but actually i do fail to see these similarities. didn't you say it was a copy of a honda cylinder? if so, could you please state the year and the modell (nsr 125 i take) of the honda cylinder you are referring to?

regardless of what your answer is i would like to point out that the falc cylinder, unlike your average yamdasusaki cylinder, fits on a smallframe engine with little if any modifications. if memory serves me right it also has the distinct advantage over the abovementioned items of being aircooled. in addition to that it works with a crankshaft of 51mm stroke, which to my knowledge is not at all common with 125 twostrokes. it also pumps out a healthy 30 brake at just over 9 grand, which in terms of bmep is a figure which to me at least implies a certain understanding of things two-stroke; the use of a reedvalve induction partly feeding into the transfers alone hardly qualifies it as a copy of either a honda or a kawasaki.

i seem to remember though that this topic at first dealt with the qualities of your cylander, i personally fail to understand the relevance of the falc debate.

what is your comment about the strange climate correction factor? what are your goals in terms of further development of your cylinder? will you be trying to find more power? or will you work on bringing the revs down a bit? or will you be fitting different carbutettors only?

Bearbeitet 18. November 2007 von amazombi

[Mike]

Firstly, I would like to say that nothing insulting was intended by calling it Geman Nerd forum, and was simply "tongue and cheek", and not meant to insult anyone.

Ok, because in the first place it sounded a bit offending.

If that wasn't your intention at all it's ok for me.

@all: Please remember to use friendly language in order to keep this discussion objective.

[scootergangbang]

maybe i'm a bit thick, but actually i do fail to see these similarities. didn't you say it was a copy of a honda cylinder? if so, could you please state the year and the modell (nsr 125 i take) of the honda cylinder you are referring to?

regardless of what your answer is i would like to point out that the falc cylinder, unlike your average yamdasusaki cylinder, fits on a smallframe engine with little if any modifications. if memory serves me right it also has the distinct advantage over the abovementioned items of being aircooled. in addition to that it works with a crankshaft of 51mm stroke, which to my knowledge is not at all common with 125 twostrokes. it also pumps out a healthy 30 brake at just over 9 grand, which in terms of bmep is a figure which to me at least implies a certain understanding of things two-stroke; the use of a reedvalve induction partly feeding into the transfers alone hardly qualifies it as a copy of either a honda or a kawasaki.

i seem to remember though that this topic at first dealt with the qualities of your cylander, i personally fail to understand the relevance of the falc debate.

what is your comment about the strange climate correction factor? what are you goals in terms of further development of the your cylinder? will you be trying to find more power? or will you work on bringing the revs down a bit? or will you be fitting different carbutettors only?

OK,

The important thing to remember here, is that I do not hink that the Falc is a COPY of the Honda cylinder, it just uses technolgy learned from their cylinder/and exhaust. The picture I first sent (of the section of the exhaust) is a prime example this was designed by honda, and has a 1HP effect on the output if you remove the protrusion (as myself and many other people did when it first came out, (thinking that it was a manufacturing fault). I have seen this same section on the Falc exhaust. Honda deveolped it, and now almost everyone uses it, Derbi, Yamaha,Harkpro,Arrow, almost everyone. To be honest I don't even know if Honda invented it, it might have been some polish guy in his garage for all I know, but the fact remains, Honda where the first to implement it (to my knowledge)

Now, in reguards to the cylinder comparisions I mentioned, the RS125R (which is a gp race bike, not a road bike) was based on the MT125R, which is how honda learned their development skills with "high port "Big Bang" two strokes (sorry, I don't know the German terms for these "buzz words", and is a CCI (crank case induction) cylander, so the port timings cannot be compared, but it is the development lessons that they discovered which enable us all to learn from. Basically, what I am saying is that if you gave a Vespa frame engine to the HRC department, they would start with something thay already know works, adapt it, improve it, and make it!

Also, no one here has re-invented the wheel!

Do you notice from the pictures that the inlet port shape of the Falc is the same as the 80's Yamaha, and the transfer boosts are the same as the old KTM picture?

It's a good example of the fact that Mr Falc ( I guess that is his name) is a DEVELOPER, he has not changed the laws of physics, he, from what I have seen has a wealth of experiance with two stroke DEVELOPMENT (more than me)

I am not trying to call his product to questuion, and indeed , from what I see his cylinder is "the standard" of competition cylinders for smallframes.

The GPS cylinder is a road going cylinder, it has no welding on the cases, and the transfers are only matched to the cylinder. My instructions for this where clear!

This cylinder has the design brief of a cylinder that will work well with any of the current ROAD exhaust systems available today (eg Hammerzombi,Franz,pm,), with the customer choosing the size of Carb that they want, and not have to change the ignition timing, squish, Copression ratio other than the first time they fit the cylinder. As close to "PLUG and play" as possable!

In short- a cylinder you can ride evry day, do the occasional quarter mile, perhaps a scooter race or two, then home!

Ok, not an every day occurance, but you get the idea!

I am trying to record as much data as possable (something I learned from racing), so than, with the values I know work while still being reliable as well as having competitive power.

Hench 1.3mm squish, opposed to .9

Yes, that would enable me to make more power, but experiance tells me than if using "pump fuel" this will make the bike "peaky" on a trailing throttle..... not a nice bike too ride slowly aye?

[amazombi]

OK,

The important thing to remember here, is that I do not hink that the Falc is a COPY of the Honda cylinder, it just uses technolgy learned from their cylinder/and exhaust. The picture I first sent (of the section of the exhaust) is a prime example this was designed by honda, and has a 1HP effect on the output if you remove the protrusion (as myself and many other people did when it first came out, (thinking that it was a manufacturing fault). I have seen this same section on the Falc exhaust. Honda deveolped it, and now almost everyone uses it, Derbi, Yamaha,Harkpro,Arrow, almost everyone. To be honest I don't even know if Honda invented it, it might have been some polish guy in his garage for all I know, but the fact remains, Honda where the first to implement it (to my knowledge)

Now, in reguards to the cylinder comparisions I mentioned, the RS125R (which is a gp race bike, not a road bike) was based on the MT125R, which is how honda learned their development skills with "high port "Big Bang" two strokes (sorry, I don't know the German terms for these "buzz words", and is a CCI (crank case induction) cylander, so the port timings cannot be compared, but it is the development lessons that they discovered which enable us all to learn from. Basically, what I am saying is that if you gave a Vespa frame engine to the HRC department, they would start with something thay already know works, adapt it, improve it, and make it!

Also, no one here has re-invented the wheel!

Do you notice from the pictures that the inlet port shape of the Falc is the same as the 80's Yamaha, and the transfer boosts are the same as the old KTM picture?

It's a good example of the fact that Mr Falc ( I guess that is his name) is a DEVELOPER, he has not changed the laws of physics, he, from what I have seen has a wealth of experiance with two stroke DEVELOPMENT (more than me)

I am not trying to call his product to questuion, and indeed , from what I see his cylinder is "the standard" of competition cylinders for smallframes.

The GPS cylinder is a road going cylinder, it has no welding on the cases, and the transfers are only matched to the cylinder. My instructions for this where clear!

This cylinder has the design brief of a cylinder that will work well with any of the current ROAD exhaust systems available today (eg Hammerzombi,Franz,pm,), with the customer choosing the size of Carb that they want, and not have to change the ignition timing, squish, Copression ratio other than the first time they fit the cylinder. As close to "PLUG and play" as possable!

In short- a cylinder you can ride evry day, do the occasional quarter mile, perhaps a scooter race or two, then home!

Ok, not an every day occurance, but you get the idea!

I am trying to record as much data as possable (something I learned from racing), so than, with the values I know work while still being reliable as well as having competitive power.

Hench 1.3mm squish, opposed to .9

Yes, that would enable me to make more power, but experiance tells me than if using "pump fuel" this will make the bike "peaky" on a trailing throttle..... not a nice bike too ride slowly aye?

from what i understand you have modified your first statement of the falc cylinder being a copy of something else (which, between you and me, is a grave insult to the developer) to a more plausibel statement, which in a nutshell, is something along the lines that the developer has done his homework and studied the information that is available (which, between you and me, is something more akin to praise than insult. you are, btw. not alone with your present assessment; it is indeed shared by a number of kart racing companies plus a few other people in the industrie). just one more piece of information: my falc engine makes 30bhp and has no welding on the casing. i have not decided not to do any welding because i considered it to much of an effort, in fact i have a fully equipped workshop inlcuding professional ac-tig equipment, i have decided against welding because it simply is not necessary, at least not for 30bhp. i therefore do not consider your decision not to weld your crankcase a drawback in terms of performance.

why do you think a squish of say 1mm or 1,2 as oposed to the 1,7 or so you are using (if i remember correctly you even said 2.2 would be industry standard) would be detrimental? what's the squish got to do with compression ratio anyway? usually i have found that a slightly higher compression ratio makes for better low rpm throttle response without any detriments, that's if the head design is chosen accordingly. btw.: you are aware that in germany at least pump fuel has anything up to 100 octane?

plug and play on what motor? pv/pk 125? if so you may want to keep in mind the original overall transmission ratio plus the notorious gap between third and fourth. with the power curve you posted (minus the 10 odd percent or so) you may find fouth gear somewhat tall to pull nicely.

Bearbeitet 18. November 2007 von amazombi

[scootergangbang]

I don't want to interrupt in this thread with any details, but I think the vietnamese has a point when he said the many new products on the scooter market are copies from previously developed old products.

I don't see this as a hack as many new developed products also are restorations of old products, sold as new. Just look at many products, not necessarily scooter related, and many other specialist companies. I don't want to mention any names

We also do this in the buissness I am related to in tuning cars. Simply because it would take to much time and be too expensive to fully develop a new product.

To take on another we also have the italian spare parts manufacturers etc. who has reproduced original piaggio spare parts to a lower price,

and not to mention the big scooter dealers, many copied products. And also which I find most funny is a well known exhaust manufacturer that has copied every one of a well know british tuner.

I see this as a result of what Gerhard mentioned, many gifted people are using their skills to develop new products, and many ungifted people have devoted their life to develop new of old products. This is not wrong, when it is stated as reproduced or redeveloped.

In many ways this is a favour, but as we know that many of the vietnamesian developers are doing this purely because of the profit the get making cheaper and poorer quality products.

There will always be copycats around, is there any hints of this in calling a crankshaft modification for S&S style? People copy things even if there is no documentation of its advantages. Is this ungifted people?

Left over from this discussion, fake is not the same as redeveloped.

Vietnamese, you seem to have details of many more products to copy, could you hand over some writings?

cheers

Truls

Very insightful words.

Firstly, I am not Vietnamese. I am from New Zealand, my grandparents are from Ireland, and have infact never been to Vietnam.

I agree with alot of what you are saying, (other than the poorly chosen words reguading my ethnicity)

BUt thank you for your input.

Please, no-one refer to me as being Vietnamese, I am, and have always been a Kiwi!

Thanks!

[scootergangbang]

from what i understand you have modified your first statement of the falc cylinder being a copy of something else (which, between you and me, is a grave insult to the developer) to a more plausibel statement, which in a nutshell, is something along the lines that the developer has done his homework and studied the information that is available (which, between you and me, is something more akin to praise than insult. you are, btw. not alone with your present assessment; it is indeed shared by a number of kart racing companies plus a few other people in the industrie). just one more piece of information: my falc engine makes 30bhp and has no welding on the casing. i have not decided not to do any welding because i considered it to much of an effort, in fact i have a fully equipped workshop inlcuding professional ac-tig equipment, i have decided against welding because it simply is not necessary, at least not for 30bhp. i therefore do not consider your decision not to weld your crankcase a drawback in terms of performance.

why do you think a squish of say 1mm or 1,2 as oposed to the 1,7 or so you are using (if i remember correctly you even said 2.2 would be industry standard) would be detrimental? what's the squish got to do with compression ratio anyway? usually i have found that a slightly higher compression ratio makes for better low rpm throttle response without any detriments, that's if the head design is chosen accordingly. btw.: you are aware that in germany at least pump fuel has anything up to 100 octane?

plug and play on what motor? pv/pk 125? if so you may want to keep in mind the original overall transmission ratio plus the notorious gap between third and fourth. with the power curve you posted (minus the 10 odd percent or so) you may find fouth gear somewhat tall to pull nicely.

I'm not sure that I have modified my statement, rather clarified it, but, lets see anyway aye!

Hey, 30hp is good for you!

Maybe with some wime, when I finish the devlopment of the prototype (with the limitations I have reguading rideability, etc)

How says this cylinder will only be available here ( Nz only has 91 octane for example)

Lord only knows what they have in Vietnam!

Do gernman petrol stations advertise the MON, or RON?

But, lets not argue semantics please!

I think I stated that the 1.7 mm squish engine was a development engine (which incidently has been sold to a customer, who is very happy), as we now use 1.33, with very satisfactory results.

2.2mm is common in performance water cooled twin cylinder strokes (which incidently all use power valves, and electronically controlled power jets), as well as digital ignition timing. This is done purely for reliability, yet, these machines, easily put out 30hp (per cylander), in standard form (emmissions gear fitted etc)

Yes, squish increases will primarily affect low rpm power, but, for example, what happens if the air density increases dramatically?

Get hold of a Det counter (under plug models are the easiest, and getting quite cheap actually), run the highest squish you can, on a hot day, in the middle of summer.

Using the same set up, do the same on a foggy, misty day.

What does you det counter read? more than 3 dets per 2 KM?

Uh, oh.........

[scootergangbang]

I'm not sure that I have modified my statement, rather clarified it, but, lets see anyway aye!

Hey, 30hp is good for you!

Maybe with some wime, when I finish the devlopment of the prototype (with the limitations I have reguading rideability, etc)

How says this cylinder will only be available here ( Nz only has 91 octane for example)

Lord only knows what they have in Vietnam!

Do gernman petrol stations advertise the MON, or RON?

But, lets not argue semantics please!

I think I stated that the 1.7 mm squish engine was a development engine (which incidently has been sold to a customer, who is very happy), as we now use 1.33, with very satisfactory results.

2.2mm is common in performance water cooled twin cylinder strokes (which incidently all use power valves, and electronically controlled power jets), as well as digital ignition timing. This is done purely for reliability, yet, these machines, easily put out 30hp (per cylander), in standard form (emmissions gear fitted etc)

Yes, squish increases will primarily affect low rpm power, but, for example, what happens if the air density increases dramatically?

Get hold of a Det counter (under plug models are the easiest, and getting quite cheap actually), run the highest squish you can, on a hot day, in the middle of summer.

Using the same set up, do the same on a foggy, misty day.

What does you det counter read? more than 3 dets per 2 KM?

Uh, oh.........

oh, and also to reply to your squish/cr question- in a two stroke engine, compression ratio selection will have a large impact on the generated squish velocity

[amazombi]

I'm not sure that I have modified my statement, rather clarified it, but, lets see anyway aye!

Hey, 30hp is good for you!

Maybe with some wime, when I finish the devlopment of the prototype (with the limitations I have reguading rideability, etc)

How says this cylinder will only be available here ( Nz only has 91 octane for example)

Lord only knows what they have in Vietnam!

Do gernman petrol stations advertise the MON, or RON?

But, lets not argue semantics please!

I think I stated that the 1.7 mm squish engine was a development engine (which incidently has been sold to a customer, who is very happy), as we now use 1.33, with very satisfactory results.

2.2mm is common in performance water cooled twin cylinder strokes (which incidently all use power valves, and electronically controlled power jets), as well as digital ignition timing. This is done purely for reliability, yet, these machines, easily put out 30hp (per cylander), in standard form (emmissions gear fitted etc)

Yes, squish increases will primarily affect low rpm power, but, for example, what happens if the air density increases dramatically?

Get hold of a Det counter (under plug models are the easiest, and getting quite cheap actually), run the highest squish you can, on a hot day, in the middle of summer.

Using the same set up, do the same on a foggy, misty day.

What does you det counter read? more than 3 dets per 2 KM?

Uh, oh.........

part of my job is preparation of endurance race engines. we are constantly working with det-counter and egt, and i honestly don't see what you concern is about. depending on climate conditions or altitude one needs to rejet, but that's one of the reasons most carb manufacturers opt for screw in type jets.

i'm only asking because literature does not consider the charge trapped in the squish gap relevant for performance. with a compression ratio of 10:1 we are talking about some 13.5 ccm of fresh charge at tdc. with your 125cc engine one mill of squish equals about 2,5cc of fresh charge, that's roughly a fifht of what you have managed to get into the engine, and according to literature, it's benefit for the actual combustion process is at least dubious.

what's the two stroke twin you are talking about?

[scootergangbang]

part of my job is preparation of endurance race engines. we are constantly working with det-counter and egt, and i honestly don't see what you concern is about. depending on climate conditions or altitude one needs to rejet, but that's one of the reasons most carb manufacturers opt for screw in type jets.

i'm only asking because literature does not consider the charge trapped in the squish gap relevant for performance. with a compression ratio of 10:1 we are talking about some 13.5 ccm of fresh charge at tdc. with your 125cc engine one mill of squish equals about 2,5cc of fresh charge, that's roughly a fifht of what you have managed to get into the engine, and according to literature, it's benefit for the actual combustion process is at least dubious.

what's the two stroke twin you are talking about?

Ok, am interesting thing has occurred here!

Sometimes what is written in books (or on the internet) can not be taken as gospel "Dubious at best" does not mean "impossable", and thankyou for not out right dissmissing it!

I have indeed run a GPS cylander with .68 squish (this is equall to the lowest squish I have ever run), and YES, the piston touched the head (surprise, surprise), but, no, the engine did not detonate.

I gained torque, but obviously the engine would not rev over 7500 rpm

(if you are intetested, I can show you the curve some other time)

4 Years ago I ran a UCCR of 18;1, while using ELF Super high octane (I can't remeber all the edetails of this fuel, other than 40L cost me around $800, and the fuel was oxegenated. The Australian rep for ELF told me I could run over 20:1 UCCR with no detonation.

Ok, the race went well, and I had more torgue than ever before, however, the air pressure dropped (rain was about to come) and my DET counter went MENTAL. I finished (after dropping 3 places in the final laps in the last 4 laps (of a 25 lap endurance race) and the power went off BIG time.

I finished after dropping 3 places in the final laps, pulled the head, and, well, you know the rest!

Also, on another tangent, the moisture level of fuel also has an effect on detonation, all the more reason to play safe on a road bike.

Would you agree?

The bike that springs to mind for the 2 cylinder 2 stroke example would be an 89,90, or early 91 (ie, "reverse cylander")

Yamaha TZR250 road bike (not to be confused with the TZ250R race bike)

THe measured squish is 2.2mm

This bike was also a nightmare, and would detonate with out any visable cause.

The solution was too richen the main jet (and lose alot of power in the process)

[scootergangbang]

i don't have a falc system, but until know i regarded this kind of connection from baffle to tailpipe as quite common. and even if it should be used only on the RS125R pipe, this is nothing that would convince me in believing the utter falc cylinder and pipe are copies. got any more?

besides that, it was not my intention to pick on you, but the fact that you were steadily mistyping the word 'cylinder' made me doubt you were a native kiwi. i think you understand that, don't you.

one last hint, if you raise the room temperature in the p4 software above the current 80°C, you can make even more power!

auf deutsch: die raumtemperatur am P4 war auf 80°C eingestellt, dadurch wurde der korrekturfaktor auf unnatürlich hohe werte geschraubt, die 20+ kurven sind fake.

Well, that's ok, but lets keep it on the frindly side aye?

I am new to Forum postings of anykind, and yea, enough said!

But Please do not think I am cheating the Dyno........ We have no Dyno room, we have an unheated workshop (faster slave, faster), and the degrees at the moment are between 14 and 8 deg!

I assure you of this 100%

I have nothing to gain by artificially bolstering the curves.

[gertax]

Well, that's ok, but lets keep it on the frindly side aye?

I am new to Forum postings of anykind, and yea, enough said!

But Please do not think I am cheating the Dyno........ We have no Dyno room, we have an unheated workshop (faster slave, faster), and the degrees at the moment are between 14 and 8 deg!

I assure you of this 100%

I have nothing to gain by artificially bolstering the curves.

aye

I believe you if you say that you did not cheat on the dyno to obtain your hp-figures, no problem. nevertheless, the power output in some of your dyno graphs shows about 10% too much power. this is due to the fact that the room temperature taken by the software for calculating the correction factor is far too high, thus resulting in a correction factor about 1,1x (on the graphs you can see that it reads about 80°C room temperature, resulting in a correction factor of 1,1x, a normal value for the correction factor is in the 1,00 range +- about 3 percent). check out the image with the arrow i posted some posts back to get to know where you can find the information about which correction factor has been used. maybe you have a broken wire or something like this in the environment of the temperature sensor.

by the way, i just dug out an excellent read about squish and its effect on engine performance by Dale Alexander for you

the art of squishing things until they give power by Dale Alexander

[scootergangbang]

aye

I believe you if you say that you did not cheat on the dyno to obtain your hp-figures, no problem. nevertheless, the power output in some of your dyno graphs shows about 10% too much power. this is due to the fact that the room temperature taken by the software for calculating the correction factor is far too high, thus resulting in a correction factor about 1,1x (on the graphs you can see that it reads about 80°C room temperature, resulting in a correction factor of 1,1x, a normal value for the correction factor is in the 1,00 range +- about 3 percent). check out the image with the arrow i posted some posts back to get to know where you can find the information about which correction factor has been used. maybe you have a broken wire or something like this in the environment of the temperature sensor.

by the way, i just dug out an excellent read about squish and its effect on engine performance by Dale Alexander for you

the art of squishing things until they give power by Dale Alexander

Firsly, thanks for the info, I will read it in time.

But, too call the Dyno into question?

For you, my friend, I will now go down that cold, unheated workshop, reassemble the bike, and do a run for you.

Such is my dedication!

[amazombi]

Firsly, thanks for the info, I will read it in time.

But, too call the Dyno into question?

For you, my friend, I will now go down that cold, unheated workshop, reassemble the bike, and do a run for you.

Such is my dedication!

i don't think anybody called the dyno (i happen to be one of the guys to have given input for the development of the very software it runs) in question. the only thing gerhard, and i among others with him, found strange was the climate correcting factor, which is stated on the dyno sheets. the figures given there are utterly unrealistic. the sheet says environment temperatur was 8° C or so (quite realistic), but the correcting factor was calculated on 80°C (which is a somewhat implausible figure for a dyno run by a human being, at least if you're a kiwi and not a finn). as a result the correction factor is 1,136 instead of something like 1,036. that's a difference of about 10°. the correct figure is therefore roughly 10% lower than the one on the graph (19 ps or so instead of 21). please remember that a dyno is nothing but a tool, and like all tools it needs to be used with a certain expertise for good results. if, for instance, you have one run out of 10 which shows a significantly higher figure than all previous and all later runs there is little point in relying on a result which cannot be reproduced reliably.

apart from that i don't think you have described the relation between squish and rev/overrev potential correctly. the engines we use in endurance racing (anything up to 24 hours) are small capacity, still they are run on a squish of around 0.5 of a mm. they will happily rev to 13 500 and more. some kart engines run a similar squish and will rev on to 18 000. these are fixed gear mainly, which appears to make a difference. i believe there is more to head geometry than just a low or a high squish. all that is neiter here nor there to be discussed, do whatever works for you.

what are the transfers based on? i find for an engine to be used on the road mainly it could do with a bit more punch down at lower rpm. ever thought about using a redeveloped S&S pipe?

Bearbeitet 18. November 2007 von amazombi

[MiNiKiN]

Hold on, it should be warm and sunny spring down in "antipodes-country" *headscratch*

[steven]

Hold on, it should be warm and sunny spring down in "antipodes-country" *headscratch*

nich in bayern...er ist aus new zealand aber nicht in new zealand

[amazombi]

Hold on, it should be warm and sunny spring down in "antipodes-country" *headscratch*

i think we are talking to a kiwi relocated to a southgerman location. the occasional criticism towards him was by some inhabitants of the place in question considered an attack of their hometown in general, hence the term "ingolstadt-bashin". his being in germany caused my remark about pump fuel with over 91 octance being readily available. i was not aware newzealand and it's fuel was a market large enough to be targeted.

[amazombi]

@gerhard:

guter artikel. habe gerade das spannwerkzeug zum zylinder abdrehen fertig gebaut. schick.

[scootergangbang]

i don't think anybody called the dyno (i happen to be one of the guys to have given input for the development of the very software it runs) in question. the only thing gerhard, and i among others with him, found strange was the climate correcting factor, which is stated on the dyno sheets. the figures given there are utterly unrealistic. the sheet says environment temperatur was 8° C or so (quite realistic), but the correcting factor was calculated on 80°C (which is a somewhat implausible figure for a dyno run by a human being, at least if you're a kiwi and not a finn). as a result the correction factor is 1,136 instead of something like 1,036. that's a difference of about 10°. the correct figure is therefore roughly 10% lower than the one on the graph (19 ps or so instead of 21). please remember that a dyno is nothing but a tool, and like all tools it needs to be used with a certain expertise for good results. if, for instance, you have one run out of 10 which shows a significantly higher figure than all previous and all later runs there is little point in relying on a result which cannot be reproduced reliably.

apart from that i don't think you have described the relation between squish and rev/overrev potential correctly. the engines we use in endurance racing (anything up to 24 hours) are small capacity, still they are run on a squish of around 0.5 of a mm. they will happily rev to 13 500 and more. some kart engines run a similar squish and will rev on to 18 000. these are fixed gear mainly, which appears to make a difference. i believe there is more to head geometry than just a low or a high squish. all that is neiter here nor there to be discussed, do whatever works for you.

what are the transfers based on? i find for an engine to be used on the road mainly it could do with a bit more punch down at lower rpm. ever thought about using a redeveloped S&S pipe?

Thank-you again for your comments.

I concur that a "Dyno is simply a tool", and must be treated as such.

I had overlooked checking such things as the accuracy of the correction factor, as past experiance shown that I had no need to query it.

Point taken though, the way I took it, was that I was "fudging" the factor to obtain the figures I wanted.

It seems very easy to misconstrue postings (again, I have no experiance in internet forums of any kind)

I assure you that I have more runs (I do not post them all), with even higher figures, as I make changes daily, and I see a few do have the incorrect correction factor.

If anyone knows A) why this happens, and B) how to avoid it, please feel free to tell me (if you feel so inclined)

In any event, I have attached a run from last night, and you will notice all correction factors are correct.

Though I am sure it was colder than 7 deg!!!!!

I do read all that you write, and agree with the things you point out.

Please be aware that I have VERY limited resources here, and to change the combustion chamber shape (as well as the 12 other heads we have) is, at best, a mamoth task.

On a slightly different tangent, after speaking to Tom and Wolfi this morning, (and asking for some more resources $$$$$$$), the response was that while there is still alot of potential that could be released, the figures are what they wanted, and as the production is still a simple process (as it does not involve a complete new casting, only a different liner), then we can now head towards producing a 20hp aluminium cylander (almost) "plug and play".

Be that as it may, I still have another cylander (125cc) I am working on, and, for my own benifit, will develop that to the best of my abilities, as after a conversation with a guy from this forum last night,(which was very much appreciated, as many things both reguarding small frames, and the politics surrounding this, and a few other topics was explained to me) I would enjoy seeing (and competing) in some of the endurance races they have here in Germany.

Before this conversation (based only on the experiances I have here in Ingolstadt), I would never have believed a 22hp cast iron cylander could be raced full throttle round a F1 curcuit......my thoughts on that matter have been completly changed, and look forward to seeing this for myself (not from pit wall though, rather from the seat of a competing bike), and all going well that could well happen.

What is an S&S pipe, I am sure you don't mean the famous twin cylander tuning company in America?

Or am I again missing something here?

[pvfahrer]

What is an S&S pipe, I am sure you don't mean the famous twin cylander tuning company in America?

Or am I again missing something here?

thats an exhaust produced by Wolle which is the owner of a shop called Scooter&Service. The layout is aimed to a relative low resonance rev, from that what i have seen on dyno runs until now.

Bearbeitet 19. November 2007 von pvfahrer

[amazombi]

Thank-you again for your comments.

I concur that a "Dyno is simply a tool", and must be treated as such.

I had overlooked checking such things as the accuracy of the correction factor, as past experiance shown that I had no need to query it.

Point taken though, the way I took it, was that I was "fudging" the factor to obtain the figures I wanted.

It seems very easy to misconstrue postings (again, I have no experiance in internet forums of any kind)

I assure you that I have more runs (I do not post them all), with even higher figures, as I make changes daily, and I see a few do have the incorrect correction factor.

If anyone knows A) why this happens, and B) how to avoid it, please feel free to tell me (if you feel so inclined)

In any event, I have attached a run from last night, and you will notice all correction factors are correct.

Though I am sure it was colder than 7 deg!!!!!

I do read all that you write, and agree with the things you point out.

Please be aware that I have VERY limited resources here, and to change the combustion chamber shape (as well as the 12 other heads we have) is, at best, a mamoth task.

On a slightly different tangent, after speaking to Tom and Wolfi this morning, (and asking for some more resources $$$$$$$), the response was that while there is still alot of potential that could be released, the figures are what they wanted, and as the production is still a simple process (as it does not involve a complete new casting, only a different liner), then we can now head towards producing a 20hp aluminium cylander (almost) "plug and play".

Be that as it may, I still have another cylander (125cc) I am working on, and, for my own benifit, will develop that to the best of my abilities, as after a conversation with a guy from this forum last night,(which was very much appreciated, as many things both reguarding small frames, and the politics surrounding this, and a few other topics was explained to me) I would enjoy seeing (and competing) in some of the endurance races they have here in Germany.

Before this conversation (based only on the experiances I have here in Ingolstadt), I would never have believed a 22hp cast iron cylander could be raced full throttle round a F1 curcuit......my thoughts on that matter have been completly changed, and look forward to seeing this for myself (not from pit wall though, rather from the seat of a competing bike), and all going well that could well happen.

What is an S&S pipe, I am sure you don't mean the famous twin cylander tuning company in America?

Or am I again missing something here?

i have talked to the guy who makes the amerschläger p4 just a minute ago. he told me that the "klimabox", the part which measures all relevant data of the environment, sometimes is affected by the electric impulses or whatever that is called in your language of the ignition. the pvl or selettra ignitions in particular are notorious for doing that. the solution is to remove the climate box a bit further away from the ignition, double distance means four times weaker impuls, hence one or two meters further away is highly likely to cure the problem permanently. i would also suggest to do the dyno runs in third gear, second gear, which appears to be what you are using, makes for a rather short run which is likely to leave the exhaust gas temperature rather low (not enough load for the pipe to heat up), which is somewhat unrealistic then. best do a number of runs with each setup (difficult because your bench does not seem to have vents to get the exhaust fumes out) as power tends to vary slightly with cold engine, only when you have reached working temperature will the curves be constant. for the sake of accuracy you ought to make sure that is the case.

for head variations anything but a malossi head (with the exception of items made in small batches, such as the gerhead) is utterly useless. a polini head does not have meat enough in standard shape, let alone after machining it to get the squish right. the polini will forever be leaking, no mater how much lapping down you do. my personal opinion would be that decent development work is impossible without a minimum workshop equipment, can't think of a way to vary a satisfying number of factors in an acceptable span of time without even a lathe at hand. i would also suggest to make sure the head geometry and squish band is within an acceptable range, this makes or marrs the whole thing. a piston to head clearance of 1,5mm and over definitely is an anachrononism regardless of the quality of pump fuel available locally.

the redeveloped s&s pipe may or may not be in the next shipment from fareast, i guess only time will tell.

btw, the highest power figure of a 136 smallframe engine capable of surviving severe thrashing around an f1 track is in the region of 25 ps. credit there goes to salih, and she has proven time and again that this works. anybody saying this is not possible clearly lacks knowledge if not skill to evaluate that. if you want to see what is possible check both the falc topic (in terms of performance this could well be the sort of opponent you have stepped into the ring to beat) and the "wer hat welche leistung" topic. as i have said my falc makes 30,3 ps at a bit over 9 grand. this required a bit of pipe development and fine tuning here and there, but apart from that is is plug and play without any welding whatsoever, and yes, it does surive full throttle on the road (early days whether it will work on the track yet, according to egt behaviour it should though). the m1l topic may also be of interest since this appears to be your nearest competitor in terms of low-effort-plug-and-play daily rideability. as you can see it makes around 23 ps or so at the moment, that's throwing the thing on as it comes out of the box more or less. it is a plated aluminium cylinder with excellent casting quality, which, depending where you buy it from, retails for a very reasonable price of under 400 euro as a complete kit.

Bearbeitet 19. November 2007 von amazombi

[gertax]

In any event, I have attached a run from last night, and you will notice all correction factors are correct.

Though I am sure it was colder than 7 deg!!!!!

well, where's the correction factor on that dyno graph? This is your first graph without it. i don't know what has happened, but now some people might think that someone did some photoshop work last night.

[Basti_MRP]

ist das das stichwort für mich?

(dabei grüß ich grad mal die 3 höllenteufel vom Frittenstand!

[scootergangbang]

i have talked to the guy who makes the amerschläger p4 just a minute ago. he told me that the "klimabox", the part which measures all relevant data of the environment, sometimes is affected by the electric impulses or whatever that is called in your language of the ignition. the pvl or selettra ignitions in particular are notorious for doing that. the solution is to remove the climate box a bit further away from the ignition, double distance means four times weaker impuls, hence one or two meters further away is highly likely to cure the problem permanently. i would also suggest to do the dyno runs in third gear, second gear, which appears to be what you are using, makes for a rather short run which is likely to leave the exhaust gas temperature rather low (not enough load for the pipe to heat up), which is somewhat unrealistic then. best do a number of runs with each setup (difficult because your bench does not seem to have vents to get the exhaust fumes out) as power tends to vary slightly with cold engine, only when you have reached working temperature will the curves be constant. for the sake of accuracy you ought to make sure that is the case.

for head variations anything but a malossi head (with the exception of items made in small batches, such as the gerhead) is utterly useless. a polini head does not have meat enough in standard shape, let alone after machining it to get the squish right. the polini will forever be leaking, no mater how much lapping down you do. my personal opinion would be that decent development work is impossible without a minimum workshop equipment, can't think of a way to vary a satisfying number of factors in an acceptable span of time without even a lathe at hand. i would also suggest to make sure the head geometry and squish band is within an acceptable range, this makes or marrs the whole thing. a piston to head clearance of 1,5mm and over definitely is an anachrononism regardless of the quality of pump fuel available locally.

the redeveloped s&s pipe may or may not be in the next shipment from fareast, i guess only time will tell.

btw, the highest power figure of a 136 smallframe engine capable of surviving severe thrashing around an f1 track is in the region of 25 ps. credit there goes to salih, and she has proven time and again that this works. anybody saying this is not possible clearly lacks knowledge if not skill to evaluate that. if you want to see what is possible check both the falc topic (in terms of performance this could well be the sort of opponent you have stepped into the ring to beat) and the "wer hat welche leistung" topic. as i have said my falc makes 30,3 ps at a bit over 9 grand. this required a bit of pipe development and fine tuning here and there, but apart from that is is plug and play without any welding whatsoever, and yes, it does surive full throttle on the road (early days whether it will work on the track yet, according to egt behaviour it should though). the m1l topic may also be of interest since this appears to be your nearest competitor in terms of low-effort-plug-and-play daily rideability. as you can see it makes around 23 ps or so at the moment, that's throwing the thing on as it comes out of the box more or less. it is a plated aluminium cylinder with excellent casting quality, which, depending where you buy it from, retails for a very reasonable price of under 400 euro as a complete kit.

I see,

I havn't really the desire to develop a cylander that competes with the Falc, far more intelligent and experianced people than me have said it is better than they could make.

I have now had a reasonably good look at one "in the flesh" (so to speak), and could never speak negatively of it's finish etc.

To show my lack of product research, I have never heard of the m1l , but will (slowly) read what is posted on this forum. (It may take some time.)

I take your point (reguarding the finish & performance vs price comment), noting that the, I guess you could say "competition" is similar in performance, yet the fact that it is a plated Aluminium cylander, would suggest it is quite superior.

I appreciate your advise on the cylinder head choice, and I have simply re-machined (and o-ringed) a Polini head (as that was the best available to me), no leaking (to date)

I guess my "lack of development" in that area would have been motivated by condition of several "tuned" engines (built by other people) that I have seen in my tenure here, that have simply detonated them selves to death.

We do have a lathe, but unfortunatly, it is only good for sharpening pencils.

You advise on operating a dyno is noted, and assure you that all runs are as consistant (as can be), and I do multiple runs before making alterations.

Reguards

[scootergangbang]

well, where's the correction factor on that dyno graph? This is your first graph without it. i don't know what has happened, but now some people might think that someone did some photoshop work last night.

Its just ascreen shot saved on to my mp3 player, then posted here. I assure you.

If thats what it shows, so be it.

I changed nothing.

[undis racing team]

Den K-Faktor kann man eh ausrechnen, oder?

Aus der Temperatur., luftdruck und luftfeuchtigkeit.

Habe aber leider keine formel

[ace]

ist das das stichwort für mich?

(dabei grüß ich grad mal die 3 höllenteufel vom Frittenstand!

[2Stroker]

Den K-Faktor kann man eh ausrechnen, oder?

Aus der Temperatur., luftdruck und luftfeuchtigkeit.

Habe aber leider keine formel

7°/46%/975mbar

ISO 1585_Bosch_S415 K = 0.981

DIN 70 020_Bosch_S415 K = 1.016

ISO 4106_Sabry K = 0.998

JIS_Alex K = 1.006

Kein Plan mit welcher Formel der Alfons so rechnet!?