T5 Original-tuning...

[Marc Werner]

I'm just back from the dyno. It's a rainy and moist day in Paris..

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It seems to work fine now.

I've lost a bit at bottom end but the gain is enough with an extra 1000 rpm. Pmax is at 7500 with more than 16 hp at the wheel..

Congratulations !

Do you changed only the Idle / Carb Settings ?

[Crank-Hank]

Might be wrong but I think the blue curve (15,6hp see diagram page6) is the old one with the PEP3 exhaust and the red curve (19hp) is the new one with BasicStar exhaust

Carb setting seems still not perfect at around 5.000

But concrats!

Bearbeitet 10. April 2012 von Crank-Hank

[audiard2]

you're right: the new red curve with new jetting and PD. And you're right too: I need to fill the flat spot around 5000. I'm not sure if it's too rich or too lean.... Probably a bit too rich or just the begining of the reso??

Bearbeitet 10. April 2012 von audiard2

[Crank-Hank]

You have to get a rev counter!

Dynorun setting?

160/BE3/125 works no doubt it has leaned out the low-middle RPM and let the idlejet do his job....

I'm running a 140/55 for idle and it's close to perfection....

[Marcelleswallace]

Hab ich das richtig verstanden. Die blaue Kurve ist PEP3 mit an einem original T5 Motor ?

[audiard2]

du bist richtig!

[Crank-Hank]

Blau ist PEP3 und Rot ist BasicStar

beides auf seinem (durchaus stattlichem) O-Tuning T5 Motor (Bilder+Beschreibung s.S.5+6)

Das ist beides Kurbelwellenleistung

[audiard2]

zwischen kurbelwelle und getriebenleistung...

Bearbeitet 11. April 2012 von audiard2

[Crank-Hank]

You haven´t told us if the MMW head was already mounted at the last dynorun with BasicStar or if not

Got it mounted now? Can you feel the difference?

Bei meinem O-Tuning T5 Motor hab ich, wie schon geschrieben, den Wechsel von O-Kopf auf MMW-Kopf deutlich in allen Bereichen gemerkt

Bearbeitet 26. April 2012 von Crank-Hank

[audiard2]

Sorry, I've had a servor problem...

The MMW head was mounted for the second run and yes it changes a lot the engine behaviour.....

I've changed the jetting for 52/110 and 160/BE3/122 and it kicks a bit sooner and rev higher and faster.....

Bearbeitet 5. Mai 2012 von audiard2

[audiard2]

new jet setting, trying to fullfill the flat spot around 5000.

I'm quite sure that my jetting is a bit too rich between 1/4 and 1/2 throttle. I've tried to change my BE3 for a leaner mid range mixer tube: I've modified a BE3 to become slowly a BE2 (4 to 8 1,4 mm holes on the thiny upper part). It became much too leaner with a kick in action delayed the hole number went raising... That was not the good idee! I need a leaner mid range with a kick in action sooner than previously.

I got back to the former idle jet 100/50 to fullfill low/mid revs and modified a BE5 by drilling a groove around the lower hole section:

bingo! it leans out 1/4 to 1/2 opening and gives a huge amount of gaz on high revs....

Engine is quite different now with torque back at low revs and crazy fly up gears....

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[Crank-Hank]

Hab ich mich dem 54er O-Tuning Motor gewidmet: Vergaserfeinabstimmung und Agusto6000 verbaut. Läuft sehr gut der Motor. 108kmh nach gps

Aber bis 3000umin: Ärgerlich. Sprotzt. Es fällt nicht so groß auf: ein wenig mehr Gas und man fährt mit 2300-2600umin an und schon ist man über 3000umin.

Muss ich mal mit nicht ovalisiertem Vergaser testen ob es dann besser wird (habe wenig bis keine Hoffnung). Welle 54 Hub gelippt 120/70

Heute habe ich eine Vergleichsfahrt gemacht:

der O-Tuning Motor (siehe Seiten zuvor: 54 Hub, 21z Cosa, Agusto, Vodoo)

gegen

einen nur gesteckten 172 Malossi (Kopf nicht angepasst), MEC Welle und Cosa-Schwimmerkammer. 21z Cosa Kulu. Rest Original. Läuft sehr schön absolut stimmig

Endgeschwindigkeit war der Malossi 2-3kmh schneller

Sonst nur zweiter Gang ab 5.000umin getestet: absolut gleiche Beschleunigung und gleich geschaltet in den 3. Gang

Fahrzeuge beides T5. Nur wog der Fahrer vom O-Tuning Motor 35kg MEHR wie der Fahrer vom Malossi Motor

Das ist nicht wenig und ich behaupte bei gleichem Fahrer laufen die Motoren gleich

Der Motor ist ein zufriedenstellendes Ergebnis. Läuft gut und schnell und es ist alles original bis auf das DRT Pleuel

Lohnt sich aber nur (wie ich schon schrieb) wie ich finde: wenn man original wegen der Blinker/BJ/Führerschein Sache fahren will/muss/sollte

Die 54mm Kurbelwelle hat mehr gekostet wie ein neuer Malossi-Zylinder! Vom stundenlangen Fräsen der Bauteile mal ganz zu schweigen

Bearbeitet 7. August 2012 von Crank-Hank

[Crank-Hank]

Ging hier eigentlich noch was weiter?

Ich bin seit dem 7.8 ca 2000km damit gefahren: alles wunderbar. Ist eben ggü meinen 52Hub T5Malossi-Motoren und dem 54Hub T5Polossi deutlich schwächer: aber drehen kann er ordentlich und Spass macht er auch

Heute hatte ich mal Zeit zum schrauben: Hab die 1mm Fußdichtung (181/125) gegen eine 0,5er Fudi und 0,5er Kodi getauscht

Hab die Zeiten jetzt nicht vermessen denke mal ich sollte jetzt bei 178/122 gelandet sein (racebase will es nicht errechnen: kann das jemand ausrechnen? )

Ist jedenfalls .... Enttäuschend!! -> Hat vielleicht bei 3-5T eine Idee gewonnen aber dafür ab 5,5T deutlich verloren. Dreht auch in jedem Gang 500u weniger. Ok: die 116er HD ist jetzt etwas zu fett, werd da noch mal ein wenig Energie reinstecken aber erwarte mir nichts was mich vom Rückbau zur 1mm Fudi abbringen sollte

Fährt jetzt muss ich gestehen irgendwie "kultivierter" aber im Sinne von "langweilig". Vorher setzte in jedem Gang ab 5500 richtig ein Schub ein und der hat wie ein Irrer bis im 2. 10T, im 3. 9T, im 4. 8.000 hochgeorgelt

Und jetzt ist das so eine Luftpumpe

Hätt klappen können. Hab wohl scheinbar zuviel PX gelesen

Oder ich fahr einfach zu gerne Hubraumzylinder....

[audiard2]

nice try but a bit deceptive?? small capacity cylinders leave us not much choices: much power at high rpm or a bit more torque and acceleration but kein pferde anymore!

[Crank-Hank]

I thought it was worse a try :)

Auslass I could lift up to 180 now to see if the tiny better torque stays and the boost at high rpm comes back. But it was running too good with the 1mm Fudi to risk the cylinder. I will go back to 1mm Fudi without any experiences

Whats up with your engine? Still have fun with the BS exhaust?

[audiard2]

you're right: always get back to the old recipes!

Bearbeitet 18. Oktober 2012 von audiard2

[Crank-Hank]

And that means to me: the bigger the better

Or: There is no substitute for cubic inches, except more cubic inches

I´m a little bit tired of spending more energy to the cylinder. It´s such a nice 54mm engine but too weak for me with the O-cylinder

Aber wer auf O-T5 steht dem kann ich das nur empfehlen: 54er Welle, Fräse rein und 30% mehr Leistung wie original bei gleicher Charakteristik

[audiard2]

the bigger the bitter! sometimes much cubic capacity for not that much leistung mehr....

[Crank-Hank]

You are absolutely right, dude!

I have exactly the same engine with the same components but with a Polossi cylinder fitted: makes roundabout 4PS more!!!

O-Tuning about 12PS vs Polossi about 16PS

Stay with that attitude!

Vorhin vergessen habe ich den MMW Kopf: unbedingt verbauen! Deutlicher Leistungszuwachs in allen Bereichen ggü O-Kopf

[audiard2]

for sure!

[modernist]

Guys, to sum up the changes you made to the air filter, carb and jets:

- Did you drill/enlarge the holes in the filter? If so, which diameter do the holes have? If not, did you use the filter with one or the one with two holes?

- Did you use PX jets? If so, did you shorten the jets or just use the standard, longer PX jets? Might make a difference, no?

- Did you modifiy the CARB/Fuel hose/fuel tap a la DRT and/or this topic http://www.germansco...hl__spritzufuhr ?

Any hints, tips, etc are appreciated!

Bearbeitet 9. November 2012 von modernist

[audiard2]

hard to drill the 2nd hole in the T5 air filter cause it's right in a pin...

I enlarged the existing one to 6-8 mmmm and try fo drill obliquely the one upon idle jet to 3-4 mm.

Yes PX jet shortened , no difference.

no modification on fuel hose/tap for such a small capacity engine and fuel needs....

Bearbeitet 9. November 2012 von audiard2

[Crank-Hank]

In my experience it is always good to drill the air filter for PX jets when you have a "gelippte" crank installed. There is no need for the T5 original FAT jets anymore (means also no need to shorten PX jets). All my engines with a gelippte crank are running with PX idles sticking through the T5 air filter.

Nowadays I would not install a T5 engine without a gelippte crank: it is definitely a waist of power and torque. And in my opinion the lubrication of main bearing (@original con-rod) is much better

If you don´t want to install a gelippte crank I would not drill the air filter in the first place. I have an original T5 engine (original crank) with just a Malossi kit fitted and I couldn´t get a smooth run with any other then the original air filter (standard with 1 hole)

What are you planning? Let us know your setup ideas, please :)

I am driving the O-Tuning 54mm engine in a totally stock T5 except of the 2mm drill to main jet and when I am on fuel reserve the engine is a blocking on full throttle: means I have to work on getting fuel constantly even at this O-Tuning engine (turns 9000umin in 3rd gear)

Means: the complete improvement stuff as shown in your freakmoped link I would recommend. Even if you don´t need it with your configuration: there won´t be any disadvantage!

[modernist]

Thanks guys!

So far, the set-up is rather "conservative":

- stock timings (inlet, outlet, transfers)

- stock crank (no "Lippenwelle" or extra stroke)

- ovalized/"flowed" inlet and "Vergaserwanne", but without an actual ovalisation of the 24/24G itself.

- dividers still in place

- autolube!

Will play with the barrel's timings during winter though. Will probably increase the blow-down timing a bit, raising the outlet a little.

But at the moment the predominat problem is, that the Italian that owned the T5 before seems to have run the scooter without an air filter and installed

- a main jet calibrator 100 (never seen that before)

- mixer tube BE4

- a slow running jet 50 (with only a 50 engraved. Not 50-100 or sth. alike. Never seen sth. like that either)

- cannot remember main jet (scooter is not near my computer...)

Has run surprisingly well, but as I am planning to reinstall the air filter or even sth. like the Polini venturi and already ovalized the inlet and the Vergaserwanne, what kind of jetting would you start with? Standard? I.e. the following

Jets:

Main jet calibrator 120

Mixer tube BE4

Main jet 112 (110 with autolube)

Slow running jet with air enlarged filter hole(s): 100/100

Slow running jet with standard air filter hole: 50/100 (default)

Starter jet 60

(source: http://www.vespat5.co.uk/techspec.html)

or sth. else involving BE3 etc? I'm just asking, as we all know that factory jetting sometimes seems to be rather rich. At least when it comes to normal PX125s.

And, speaking of standard T5 jetting, what do you make of this:

Slow running jet with air enlarged filter hole(s): 100/100

Slow running jet with standard air filter hole: 50/100 (default)

Was there a T5 air filter with factory enlarged holes?

Thank you for your help!

Bearbeitet 9. November 2012 von modernist

[Crank-Hank]

Ok.

I would go with BE3/160 and 112 for the start

And 50/100 without additional drills to air filter

Check the previous sides of topic for improving exhaust port and piston

Regarding Autolube: this is exactly my statement

...

Getrenntschmierung ( eine der Mythen im GSF ist, das die Ölpumpe gerne mal versagt, ist mir bei mehreren Moppeds und über zehnntausende von Kilometern nie passiert, ist vlt. einfacher eine "defekte" Ölpumpe zu diagnostizieren, als zuzugeben, das man den Öltank nicht aufgefüllt hat....)

...

I am running a tuned T5 engine with autolube (PX200 pinion) as well: runs perfectly

Our British friends have mostly autolube T5 engines (Were non-autolube T5 sold to the island?) and they are all driving it even with tuned engines. GB-Forum: "Why you want to install a bigger carb, dude, don´t you know you lose the autolube?"

But I would recommend the PX200 pinion: in GB it is very common to add an addition of 1% oil into fuel tank with the original T5/125/150 pinion (2 theeth cut-out; PX200 has 3)

Bearbeitet 9. November 2012 von Crank-Hank

[audiard2]

update and new project: O-tuning fuer T5 season 2

this time more hub with a 54 mm stoke, MMW2 reed block because sealing pad passed away. and still MMW head and Pipe-design BS...

I've tried to open transfert to the max and managed to create hooks in the mains and auxiliary transferts. Hard stuff but could be interesting if it works.

timing is: 128/190

Crank lightened and flowed in an old fashion way (Norrie Kerr where are you!)

Boyesen reeds

Oko 30 mm

Not a kitted engine but no more a real o-tuning one either...

inlet spreading on the right half case:

[Crank-Hank]

You are absolutely amazing, guy! Will work! Keep us posted

Have you seen the MB Facebook Topic: Check it out! Check the pics of him. Good stuff

http://www.germansco...__p__1067386978

And Mark replies to the casing+cylinder divider question... And check the boostport drillings

I mean if Mark hasn´t found it out during his 20+ years of T5 tuning: WHO ELSE!?!

Too late: I know ....

Edit: Your exhaust port is excellent!

Bearbeitet 23. Januar 2013 von Crank-Hank

[audiard2]

I've already read the MB 190 conversion topic. Impressive... Really: What a stuff done on it...

Those old cases with damaged seal pad were previously and obviously tuned for a malossi top end (size of the boost port)

I didn't drill too much boost port to the crank place just rounded it a bit to avoid gaz flow wrecking. My previous project was much more a dremel extravaganza!

[audiard2]

crank back from the hospital:

precisely balanced

[audiard2]

engine reassembled

Modified vtronc with circular 1kg weight removed. 

 

 

 

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Bearbeitet 6. April 2013 von audiard2