Primavera Quatrini M200 Top speed only

[cvjosh]

Looking or help with two engine builds. Working on building a Small frame and Large frame engine for top speed only in a straight line. The top speed should be reached within 3 miles. So i am trying to find the Tallest gearing possible and if the chosen kits will have enough Torque to pull the gearing

 

- Smallframe will have the Quatrini m200 cases and cylinder. Does any one have any Dyno info or where I could find more info? Also best exhaust for torque? And lastly does anyone know of a higher Primary gear than the 29t crimza?

 

I know these types of projects are costly but I want to also be as reasonable as possible price wise.

 

Thanks to anyone who can help point me in the right direction!

[jolle]

There you can find everything about the Quattrini M200:

https://www.germanscooterforum.de/topic/363166-quattrini-200-cc-smallframe/?page=432&tab=comments#comment-1069243518

 

I think for top-speed, you should not look for best torque. You should look for best power with a wide powerband.

 

Longest primary I know ist the DRT "PRIMARIA DRT/TOB z56-26 (2.15)":

http://www.drtdenis.com/catalogo/sottocat.htm DBE?idcat=215&catee=01

 

At which events do you want to ride it?

 

 

Bearbeitet 23. Januar 2021 von jolle

[gertax]

How fast du you want to go? And where can one do 3 mile top speed runs?  

[Tim Ey]

vor 16 Stunden hat jolle folgendes von sich gegeben:

Longest primary I know ist the DRT "PRIMARIA DRT/TOB z56-26 (2.15)":

http://www.drtdenis.com/catalogo/sottocat.htm DBE?idcat=215&catee=01

Uh, nice one! Does anyone have a picture of that primary?

[Das O]

vor 24 Minuten hat Tim Ey folgendes von sich gegeben:

Uh, nice one! Does anyone have a picture of that primary?

 

Ritzel

DRT TOB 56/25

 

[cvjosh]

21 hours ago, jolle said:

There you can find everything about the Quattrini M200:

https://www.germanscooterforum.de/topic/363166-quattrini-200-cc-smallframe/?page=432&tab=comments#comment-1069243518

 

I think for top-speed, you should not look for best torque. You should look for best power with a wide powerband.

 

Longest primary I know ist the DRT "PRIMARIA DRT/TOB z56-26 (2.15)":

http://www.drtdenis.com/catalogo/sottocat.htm DBE?idcat=215&catee=01

 

At which events do you want to ride it?

 

 

 

Thank you for the links!  

 

In september the scooter hopefully will be at Bonneville salt flats ;) 

[cvjosh]

20 hours ago, gertax said:

How fast du you want to go? And where can one do 3 mile top speed runs?  

As fast as possible. A real life run of over 100mph would be amazing. 

 

You can do 3mile runs at the Bonneville Salt flats ;) 

[gertax]

vor 14 Minuten hat cvjosh folgendes von sich gegeben:

As fast as possible. A real life run of over 100mph would be amazing. 

 

You can do 3mile runs at the Bonneville Salt flats ;) 

 

That should be a feasible task.

You should aim for about 45 rwhp (or more) at sea level, I'd guess. And depending on the rev range and gearing (the total final gear ratio is important, not so much die primary reduction), this can be achieved without a super long primary reduction, too. I've done it with a 2,65 ratio, for example (not an M200 engine).

 

Hopefully, one day I'll be riding at the bonneville salt flats, too!

[cvjosh]

1 minute ago, gertax said:

 

That should be a feasible task.

You should aim for about 45 rwhp (or more) at sea level, I'd guess. And depending on the rev range and gearing (the total final gear ratio is important, not so much die primary reduction), this can be achieved without a super long primary reduction, too. I've done it with a 2,65 ratio, for example (not an M200 engine).

Thanks for the insight!

 

what did you hit 100mph with if you don't mind me asking? 

 

 

[FalkR]

Just a calculation example:

 

primary ratio = 2,15

ratio 4th gear = 2,3-2,4

3.50-10" wheel circumference = 1,3m

max rpm. ~10500rpm

 

--> 99-104 mph

 

PS: For 100mph you don't need 45hp and more. Would be helpful, but isnt' needed.

There are several racing teams which hit the 95-100mph in Magny-Cours (France) with about 35hp and M200 engine.

Bearbeitet 24. Januar 2021 von FalkR

[gertax]

Gerade eben hat cvjosh folgendes von sich gegeben:

Thanks for the insight!

 

what did you hit 100mph with if you don't mind me asking? 

 

You're welcome! If you have not done it already, it will be probably useful to make an excel sheet with all the gearing and tire options.

 

There are several of my scooters with different setups capable of 100 mph. Although, I had to hurry, as most of the time I had only a quarter of a mile to accelerate.

 

Some pictures and further technical information can be found in my advent calendar

 

 

[gertax]

vor 7 Minuten hat FalkR folgendes von sich gegeben:

PS: For 100mph you don't need 45hp and more. Would be helpful, but isnt' needed.

There are several racing teams which hit the 95-100mph in Magny-Cours (France) with about 35hp and M200 engine.

 

You are right, 35 does the trick. But keep in mind that Bonneville is at an elevation of ~1300m, so I would target 45 in order to have ~38 available at the salt anytime (and 3hp as a backup, as being stuck at 99,7mph would suck).

[cvjosh]

 

2 minutes ago, gertax said:

 

You are right, 35 does the trick. But keep in mind that Bonneville is at an elevation of ~1300m, so I would target 45 in order to have ~38 available at the salt anytime (and 3hp as a backup, as being stuck at 99,7mph would suck).

Yea this is what I have stuck in my mind. I know bikes will go over 100mph on a drag strip or on perfect tarmac. The rolling resistance of the salt is something myself and my buddy which i am working on the project with are heavily keeping in mind. 

 

Also paring the cylinder with the correct pipe to keep the Power band as wide as possible as to not have loss of speed if we fall out of it in too short of time. 

[alfonso]

vor einer Stunde hat FalkR folgendes von sich gegeben:

PS: For 100mph you don't need 45hp and more. Would be helpful, but isnt' needed.

There are several racing teams which hit the 95-100mph in Magny-Cours (France) with about 35hp and M200 engine.

.... aaand: Those engines are NOT built for top speed!

 

They are built for fast turns on short racetracks.

[Tim Ey]

You are losing power because of the reduced air density.

BUT: You lose drag through the reduced air density as well.

I made a rough calculation a while ago for a certain engine and scooter. On paper it had the same maximum speed like in sea level conditions.

 

But the biggest uncertainty is the salt, Josh, do you have any reliable sources regarding slip and friction?

My goal would be to reach as much HP as possible. With a broad powerband and overrev capability

[gertax]

Seems like something in between 2 and 5 HP for rolling resistance @ 100 mph on salt can be estimated

 

https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/threads/formula-for-calculating-rolling-resistance.8937/

 

 

[cvjosh]

3 hours ago, gertax said:

Seems like something in between 2 and 5 HP for rolling resistance @ 100 mph on salt can be estimated

 

https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/threads/formula-for-calculating-rolling-resistance.8937/

 

 

Thank you for the LINK! I was looking for some fixed details about the calculations needed for the salt. 

 

Now I am thinking that trying to achieve 45-50hp would put us in a safe place regardless of the salt conditions. 

 

moving on from this though I will have to work out the gearing and figure out which clutch will hold the 50hp with out exploding. 

 

[FalkR]

Maybe interesting for your project:

 

M200 - exhaustport 195deg, transferports 127deg

Stock Quattrini crankshaft 56.5mm stroke

35mm PWK Airstriker Carburetor

Vespatronic ignition

M200-Race exhaust

 

 

The dip @6000rpm was the wrong carb needle Setting.

Bearbeitet 25. Januar 2021 von FalkR

[gertax]

vor 11 Stunden hat cvjosh folgendes von sich gegeben:

Thank you for the LINK! I was looking for some fixed details about the calculations needed for the salt. 

 

Now I am thinking that trying to achieve 45-50hp would put us in a safe place regardless of the salt conditions. 

 

moving on from this though I will have to work out the gearing and figure out which clutch will hold the 50hp with out exploding. 

 

 

In case you would like to take the shortcut, engine wise, an @egig 250 engine would be just perfect for your demands. They are ready to run and come with about 50 rwhp and all components strong enough to keep everything together. And there is potential for more hp (Erich managed to reach 70), whereas on the M200 I do not recall having seen anything above mid 50ies, hp wise.

 

 

[alfonso]

KLICK

 

Why not 304cc for just 150€ on top?

Bearbeitet 25. Januar 2021 von alfonso

[egig]

304cc are all reserved, the next charge will arrive at september and than i can build enaugh for everyone

[cvjosh]

On 1/25/2021 at 5:48 AM, FalkR said:

Maybe interesting for your project:

 

M200 - exhaustport 195deg, transferports 127deg

Stock Quattrini crankshaft 56.5mm stroke

35mm PWK Airstriker Carburetor

Vespatronic ignition

M200-Race exhaust

 

 

The dip @6000rpm was the wrong carb needle Setting.

@FalkR thank you for sharing the  info! It is extremely helpful :) 

 

[cvjosh]

 @alfonso  @gertax - EGIG makes some amazing stuff from what I have seen, though i know his products are worth every cent they are just to much for our budget. Also the fun is seeing if we build the motors to do what we want.