Umfrage vCDI

[Lucifer]

hmm, schöne Tests, aber irgendwie raff' ich's nicht:

Bei den geposteten Kurven ist doch eine statisch, und die andere mit mehr Vorzündung unten, die dann irgendo oben den statischen ZZP von zuvor erreicht, oder?

Dann ist allerdings das Ergebnis absolut verblüffend, und widespricht gewiß nicht nur meinen jahrelangen Erfahungen....

Was ich auch noch nie sah, ist, daß sich mit dem Zündzeitpunkt eine Kurve ohne Leistungsänderung quasi exakt parallel verschiebt...

Nachdem Leistung ja Drehmoment mal Drehzahl ist, ist das alleine fast schon ein Widerspruch in sich...

Persönlich habe ich mir ehrlich von der Verstellerei nicht besonders viel erwartet, zumal ich ja selbst da auch mal herumhestümpert habe, ohne den großen Wurf zu landen. Nach manchen Posts hier, voll Euphorie, war ich jedoch sehr zuversichtlich, daß da ein paar helle Köpfe eine Revolution schaffen, ähnlich den neuen Wundertüten....

Irgendwie ergeht es aber scheinbar anderen ebenso: der große Aha-Effekt ist bisher doch ausgeblieben

[PMS]

@pms

Bitte probier die (defekte) AddOnV doch bitte mal auf einem anderen Motor (ohne HP4), wenn du die möglichkeit hast.

Gruß

Vollgas Motorroller

also ich könnte ohne viel aufwand ein org. lüfter verbauen..auch die ausenliegende "zündbox" kann ich wechseln(hatte ich sogar eine zweite dabei,aber als das 2. VCDI gefunzt hat nicht verbaut!).

wenns klappt auch mit dem GSF-DYNO aufnehmen..

leider haben wir nicht alle kurven vom testen..

aber es hat auch kurven gegeben auf dem man den krassen leistungsabfall durch aussetzer gesehen hat.

also wir sortieren/sichten alle kurven nochmals u. ich teste(bei trockenem wetter) das alte VCDI mit org. lüfter!

@lucifer:

ich hatte die zündgrundplatte so verstellt das sich bei fester u. bei der VCDI der ZZP bei 8000 U/min. bei ca. 16° einstellt.

hatten bei der VCDI nur die verstellrate eingestellt/verändert.

event. sollte man nochmals auf einen P4 gehen u. nur die VCDI testen..

gruß

tom

[KTy]

Hi guys ;)

I'm currently driving my PX with my variable ignition unit I just finished... :)

I'm still in the process of "debugging" it, but it's very promising ;)

It is fully programmable, you don't have to change the timing on your scooter (good to know if my unit blows off, I just have to unplug it !!), and you don't need 12V AC or any other DC supply...

It also handle misfire and (very soon) "overheating" temperature.

In the near future, I will add the support for multiple curves selection, and curves and firmware downloads from a user interface...

I have also other nice ideas, but very few times... :(

The accuracy is very good, maximum error about 1° at 15000rpm.

Here are some pics...

Here is an example for my PX (stock engine !)... It's a test curve, probably not perfect !

As soon as I have more time I will try to "GSF-dyno"-it (Real dynos are very hard to find here in France... ).

Cheers ;)

Bearbeitet 18. Dezember 2005 von KTy

[beodeo]

hi KTy !

nice to see there is some more going on!

My vCDI (witch is actualy a transistor ignition) is not so far in development as yours.

2 times destroid hardware (magnet don´t want to stay where I glue him ) before I got a good result from software settings.

I wish to see the result of up-and-down going advance curve on a dyno! Should be definitly a better result as a one-way-curve only - I guess.....

Would you tell us more about your basics?

100% home made ? or a kit from somewhere?

my basics you see some pages behind...

viva la france

:grins:

[KTy]

Well, 100% home made

The hardware is quite simple, nothing really "magic" :)

A part of the circuit does the detection of the thyristor signal a convert it to a usable 0-5V.

There is a PIC microcontroller that computes everything, an RS232 transceiver for data input/output (ebug, curves and firmwareupdate) and a MAX6675 as a thermocouple interface for the cylinder head temperature (Not used yet).

There is also a part of the circuit designed to use the AC voltage from the HTCoil and to convert it in a regulated 5V.

Besides that, the "difficult" part was to code the firmware because the PIC generate an ignition pulse "one cycle" after the original pulse... This way I can retard or advance the ignition without changing the stator

As it is kinda self-powered it was tricky to "start" the PIC, usually you have to kick start two time :D One to charge the coils and condenser, that is powering up the whole circuit and then waiting. And another one to really start the engine... :plemplem:

I choose this way because: 1. it was fun to design and 2. I wanted to limit the number of wires to the strict minimum... Just 4 wires, plug'n play and voilà, you've got a vCDI :)

Well, I still have to intensively test it, find a better ignition curve (Tomorow I'll try the vespatronic igniton curve) and check if there is some drawback or hidden bugs ;)

Another pic ;)

Cheers,

KTy

[KTy]

By the way, does anyone know if the vespatronic curve is a "good" one ?

Anyone want to suggest an ignition curve for a (fucked up) PX 125 ? :)

[amazombi]

By the way, does anyone know if the vespatronic curve is a "good" one ?

Anyone want to suggest an ignition curve for a (fucked up) PX 125 ? :)

get in touch with mvt, their engineer is a very nice bloke who will be able to put you on the right track, and he's french. the curve you are running at the moment does not seem to make much sense. it should start with 17° or so, then go to 32, then retard to 17 and then go up to say 23 or so again. there are some suggestions that max. advance should coincide with peak torque, max retard peak power. i believe that's bullshit though. the only way to arrive at decent results is a dyno, sorry to say so. depending on where you live i would be ready to trade dyno time for one of your fully programmable vcdi units, i'd be prepared to pay any difference you'd consider fair of course. great job, by the way.

[KTy]

get in touch with mvt, their engineer is a very nice bloke who will be able to put you on the right track, and he's french. the curve you are running at the moment does not seem to make much sense. it should start with 17° or so, then go to 32, then retard to 17 and then go up to say 23 or so again. there are some suggestions that max. advance should coincide with peak torque, max retard peak power. i believe that's bullshit though. the only way to arrive at decent results is a dyno, sorry to say so. depending on where you live i would be ready to trade dyno time for one of your fully programmable vcdi units, i'd be prepared to pay any difference you'd consider fair of course. great job, by the way.

About MVT, you told me already... I'll try to get in touch with them in January (those French, always on vacations )

You're totally right about the shape of the curve, that's what I read in the literature... But for my old PX that can't peak higher than 7000rpm, I think you don't reach the rpm where you should start to increase once again the advance...

And actually, I'm not sure to understand why 18° should be a good advance for "idling" ... and you think that advance can retarded as far as 32° on a stock engine ?

Anyway, I'll see how the PX 125 engine (peak power at @6000rpm) feels with this:

Thanks for the offer, that would be greatly appreciated (thus I'm pretty sure it will be a long trip to visit you), but right now I just want to make sure that the electronic is reliable... I will look for performance enhancement when I'm sure my circuit is working perfectly ;)

Thanks ;)

KTy

Bearbeitet 19. Dezember 2005 von KTy

[KTy]

Update from this morning... :)

When the engine was "cold", it was running great with the above timing curve. Then, after 5-10minutes of normal street driving, little by little, it became more and more difficult to drive at "low rpm", but still doing fine while idling and also at mid and high-rpm...

In the end, I bypassed it as it was undrivable for street use. The timing curve I was using yesterday was better for low rpm...

So I guess it was too much advance too soon (low rpm)...

I will continue to experience ;)

And if you're wondering, I have a Chamion L82C spark as it is pretty cold out there and also because I'm focusing on low and mid-rpm...

Bearbeitet 19. Dezember 2005 von KTy

[KTy]

I found why I had some trouble at low RPM... It is now fixed ! It seems even smoother than without ! :love:

This is the test curve for tomorrow !

27° at maximum torque (4000rpm)

16° at maximum power (6000rpm) !

KTy -

Bearbeitet 19. Dezember 2005 von KTy

[schnecke]

great job! Unbelievable. After 49 pages KTY finds the sacred Graal!

...almost.

I follow up in french, by the way, on the scootentole.org site (Martin).

I wish I had those electronics skills, and as much time!

Good courage to you KTy!

[KTy]

I wish I had [...] as much time!

That's the problem... I don't have that much time, working on my sleep hours !

[KTy]

Alloha everyone

Happy new year

Back on topic, Lucifer told me that he gave the opened Ducati CDI discussed in this topic to one of you guys... I was wondering if this person is still online ?

I also wanted to know if someone has a schematic of this CDI unit, what really interested me is the input circuit that trigger the thyristor... (Between the red and white wires)...

And a little update from my vCDI project; it's still working :D BUT I'm not sure why it's not working perfectly at low RPM... That's why I have decided to finish to rebuild another PX 177 engine to try on this one, as my stock PX 125 engine has an air leak and some carburetor troubles... :puke:

[schnecke]

yes!

177 is what is really intersting after all! well, for the 200' to 210 and more as well, of course.

good courage. Hope to hear some news.Bye.

[Klingelkasper]

Ich erdreiste mich mal hier an dieser Stelle zu sagen, daß ich es für wenig sinnvoll halte, auf den CDI-Anlagen der Vespamotoren AddUps irgendwelcher Art aufzurüsten. Die Anlagen mögen zwar gegenüber einer kontaktgesteuerten Magnetzündung zuverlässig und wartungsarm sein, sie sind in erster Linie aber billigst herzustellen, Präzisionszündungen sind das nicht. Das kann man auch in diesem Topic nachlesen, wenn man ein wenig zwischen den Zeilen stöbert. Zudem ist es fast unmöglich, mit halbwegs vernünftigem Aufwand diese Anlagen auf 100% Funktion zu prüfen (anstelle von nur 90-, 80- oder 70-prozentig, was wohl in den meisten Fällen eher zutrifft).

Der Einfluß der KuWeLagerung und der Drehzahl auf das Pickupsignal ist sicher auch mehr als nur ein Schönheitsfehler, wenn man optimale Ergebnisse haben will.

Das sind m.E. von Haus aus keine Hochleistungszündanlagen und der Mühe kaum wert.

Bearbeitet 3. Januar 2006 von Klingelkasper

[KTy]

You're probably right....

But it's fun to try anyway

[Klingelkasper]

I understood and i´m deeply impressed by the results produced by you having some fun, really nice work!. :love:

Nevertheless, some of your problems may have their reason in the nearby 30 year old design of the Ducati cdi or, sounds somewhat better , in some kind of "aging" or adjustment problems of your actually installed ignition components.

Maybe this link to the circuit of a BOSCH CDI could help a little bit, i think there should be only minor differences to the Ducati CDI: EDIT: Link doesn´t exist anymore, please send a PM with your email adress, if you would like to have it.

Bearbeitet 5. Januar 2006 von Klingelkasper

[beodeo]

....Nevertheless, some of your problems may have their reason in the nearby 30 year old design of the Ducati cdi or, sounds somewhat better , in some kind of "aging" or adjustment problems of your actually installed ignition components.

......

sehr gut möglich!

Es ist schon bezeichnend wenn selbst Ducati Meccanica zu dieser Zeit ihr neues Modell (Pantah) nicht mit Zündanlagen von der Tochterfirma Ducati Elektrotechnica ausstattet, sondern lieber zu Bosch geht

Wie hier im topic zu lesen ist, ist auch meine programmierbare Zündung eine stand-alone Lösung. Die Gründe warum sie immernoch nicht zuverlässig läuft sind reine Hardware Probleme. Unglaublich welche Löcher klitzekleine Gebermagneten in Lüfterhauben schießen können :haeh:

[KTy]

Klingelkasper was almost right !

I think the correct schematic for the vespa electronic ignition CDI unit is this one:

:sabber:

KTy -

[KTy]

Thanks to this schematic I have updated a little bit my output circuit.

It seems a bit better at low rpm, idle is fine, mid and high rpm are smooth.

Unfortunatly, the engine still has some "hesitation" from time to time when I'm driving at low-rev / high-load. For instance, when I'm slowing down around 1500-2000rpm in 4th gear, with the throttle almost closed, if I open the throttle little bit (10%) to re-accelerate smoothly, the engine doesn't like it too much... I don't know if it's because I have set too much retard at this rpm and/or because the engine is too lean...

Maybe I need a throttle sensor...

Here is the curve:

EDIT: Now that I see again this curve I am thinking that the problem is maybe that between 1500 and 2000 rpm the advance increase fastly... that's maybe not very good for smooth riding for "street use"...

Bearbeitet 6. Januar 2006 von KTy

[Klingelkasper]

What number of setpoints are you using in your timing table, Kty? For strong variations of ignition timing you will need at least one timing setpoint for each 100rpm change of motor speed. Maybe your problems at low rpm are forced by that.

[Mike]

Hat jemand Lust die Erkenntnisse dieses Topics kurz im Wiki zusammenzufassen? 60 Seiten überblickt niemand mehr....

www.germanscooterwiki.de

Cheers!

[KTy]

@Maniac: I will write a little article ;)

What number of setpoints are you using in your timing table, Kty? For strong variations of ignition timing you will need at least one timing setpoint for each 100rpm change of motor speed. Maybe your problems at low rpm are forced by that.

The number of point I'm using is unlimited :D (restricted only by memory size).

But, that's not the reason because the pink curve is exactly what the vCDI box generates.

For this test curve, I have "only" 10 points, but between each points I do a "linear interpolation".

For instance, I have 1 point that gives 19° of retard @1500rpm and an another one that gives 22° @2000rpm.

Then if the engine revs at ~1620rpm, you'll have ~20° of advance.

I'll test tonight a fixed 19° ignition timing to investigate more...

[Bertl]

Ist hier besser aufgehoben.

Servus,

Bin im Zuge eines Laborversuchs auf die Firma Kistler gestoßen. Die bauen Piezosensoren für alle möglichen Bereiche. Unter Anderem haben die Zündkerzen mit integriertem Klopfsensor (nicht für Dauereinsatz). Es gibt aber auch Klopfsensoren für den Dauereinsatz. Dazu ist dann eine zusätzliche Bohrung im Zylinderkopf notwendig. Ich kenn mich ja in Elektrotechnik nicht wirklich aus, aber vielleicht fühlt sich ja jemand motiviert eine VCDI zu entwickeln, die durch Klopfsensor geregelt wird. Es gibt ja bereits einige Leute hier, die sich mit dem Thema auseinander gesetzt haben und auch schon Ergebnisse vorweisen können. Basis Know-how ist also vorhanden.

Zündkerzen mit Klopfsensor

[KTy]

A piece of update,

After some software and hardware modification, it seems to work pretty well, all the way ! No more mid-RPM problems !

The other (very) good news is that I (finally) found a dyno near where I live !! :plemplem: So I hope that in the next weeks I will be able to show you some comparative power curves

As for the curve, I am currently driving with this one:

[amazombi]

A piece of update,

After some software and hardware modification, it seems to work pretty well, all the way ! No more mid-RPM problems !

The other (very) good news is that I (finally) found a dyno near where I live !! :plemplem: So I hope that in the next weeks I will be able to show you some comparative power curves

As for the curve, I am currently driving with this one:

hi kty,

that's good news indeed. i certainly am looking forward to getting some figures for your engines, the smallframe one in particular.

123 kit: what do you want that for? send me a pm, maybe i can do something for you on that front

[huegenbegger]

sorry, zu faul alles zu lesen, aber ist die hier schon bekannt?

die homesite

die zündung im speziellen, Preis 120,-

Beschreibung auf Deutsch

vlt kann man die gut adaptieren?

[amazombi]

sorry, zu faul alles zu lesen, aber ist die hier schon bekannt?

die homesite

die zündung im speziellen, Preis 120,-

Beschreibung auf Deutsch

vlt kann man die gut adaptieren?

das sieht sehr gut aus. ich hab' denen gerade eine mail geschickt mit der frage ob man das teil anpassen kann, ob sie das tun würden, und, wenn ja, aber welcher stückzahl die damit anfange würden. ich warte mal auf die antwort und gebe das dann hier durch. je nachdem wieviele das sein werden kann man ja über eine sammelbestellung nachdenken, oder ich bestell einfach einen schwung und reiche die dann weiter. hoffe das ist ok für dich, herr huegenbegger. wenn nicht sag' bescheid. mir brennt's nur unter den nägeln da endlich was seriöses zu kriegen.

[Melkfett]

Das Teil hört sich gut an. Kann man die cdi denn nicht jetzt schon an unsere Grundplatte hängen?

scheint ja nur zwischen pick-up und zündspule zu kommen. Oder hab ich da was falsch verstanden?

Welche Änderungen müssten denn vorgenommen werden?

[amazombi]

Das Teil hört sich gut an. Kann man die cdi denn nicht jetzt schon an unsere Grundplatte hängen?

scheint ja nur zwischen pick-up und zündspule zu kommen. Oder hab ich da was falsch verstanden?

Welche Änderungen müssten denn vorgenommen werden?

gebe ich durch sobald ich eine antwort habe. wenn eine kommt.

antwort heute morgen: bitte um mehr informationen. habe den guten mann jetzt mal mit bildern versorgt und ihm auch angeboten ein muster zu schicken. ich bin mal gespannt.

Bearbeitet 2. Februar 2006 von amazombi