T5 TS1

[Lucifer]

Na, das klingt doch nicht schlecht, unsere Version war jedenfalls deutlich schlechter!

Wir hatten einen umgeschweißten Taffy für TS1 drunter hängen, einen VM30, dann VM36 und zuletzt 34er DO drauf, mit Boyesens Membran. ÜS war Sprint mit 200er Primär, wobei die Nebenwelle zweimal das Gehäuse sprengte, der Kolben (ohne Klemmer!) zweimal brach,...was den großen Aufwand in absolut gar keiner Hinsicht rechtfertigte.

Der parallel dazu gebaute H2O-Prolini war standfester und schneller, trotz "nur 30er Vergaser" und ordinärem veranztem PM mit zig Beulen....

Mein damaliger TourenMalle drückte immer wieder zw. 26 und 29PS, je nach Puff und Dyno, und war jedenfalls deutlich stärker im Vergleich, auch vs. dem Rally-TS1, wobei ich nicht (mehr) weiß, welchen Auspuff der verwendet hat, war jedenfalls ein dicker Rechtsausleger (könnte ein PSP gewesen sein?)

Na, das klingt doch nicht schlecht, unsere Version war jedenfalls deutlich schlechter!

Wir hatten einen umgeschweißten Taffy für TS1 drunter hängen, einen VM30, dann VM36 und zuletzt 34er DO drauf, mit Boyesens Membran. ÜS war Sprint mit 200er Primär, wobei die Nebenwelle zweimal das Gehäuse sprengte, der Kolben (ohne Klemmer!) zweimal brach,...was den großen Aufwand in absolut gar keiner Hinsicht rechtfertigte.

Der parallel dazu gebaute H2O-Prolini war standfester und schneller, trotz "nur 30er Vergaser" und ordinärem veranztem PM mit zig Beulen....

Mein damaliger TourenMalle drückte immer wieder zw. 26 und 29PS, je nach Puff und Dyno, und war jedenfalls deutlich stärker im Vergleich, auch vs. dem Rally-TS1, wobei ich nicht (mehr) weiß, welchen Auspuff der verwendet hat, war jedenfalls ein dicker Rechtsausleger (könnte ein PSP gewesen sein?)

[OzOAP]

......may your success with the ladies last forever.

i think i read something about a race prepared mini by your company in some english magazine some time ago. if that indeed was you the quality of the engineering on the pictures certainly was outstanding....

My success with the ladies gets better, as I get richer

Ive had a few cars/engines featured in magazines over the years. Its good advertising.

My engines have won the Mighty Mini, Super Mighty Mini, and 3 Historic Rally Championships this year, so it looks like a busy winter with a few new customers.

Ive got a couple more Vespa projects to do. Hope work does not get in the way

I will be dynoing the TS when I have sorted out another couple of carburettors to try.

I have 3 types of reed block, (Yam with std reeds, dual stage Boyesons and a V-Force 3), and a 32 and 34mm VHSB carbs, but want to try a 30mm and a 35 Mikuni aswell.

I have broken a few casings with 210's, so Ive used two extra bolts in the clutch cover, to hopefully hold things together

Bearbeitet 2. Oktober 2006 von OzOAP

[amazombi]

My success with the ladies gets better, as I get richer

Ive had a few cars/engines featured in magazines over the years. Its good advertising.

My engines have won the Mighty Mini, Super Mighty Mini, and 3 Historic Rally Championships this year, so it looks like a busy winter with a few new customers.

Ive got a couple more Vespa projects to do. Hope work does not get in the way

I will be dynoing the TS when I have sorted out another couple of carburettors to try.

I have 3 types of reed block, (Yam with std reeds, dual stage Boyesons and a V-Force 3), and a 32 and 34mm VHSB carbs, but want to try a 30mm and a 35 Mikuni aswell.

I have broken a few casings with 210's, so Ive used two extra bolts in the clutch cover, to hopefully hold things together

i do admire your honesty, you may be well advised to rephrase the facts though. sentences such as "increased sexual versatiliy" or "an attractive and manly physiognomy which has finally been unveiled by a receding hairline" may be preferable.

the clutch plate with the 5 bolts looks extremely interesting. has this actually cured the problem of the casings splitting at the layshaft's hole? if so that would indeed be something the largeframe faction has been craving for.

[OzOAP]

Since adding the two extra bolts on another one of my casings, I have not had any cracking problems.........yet

[amazombi]

Since adding the two extra bolts on another one of my casings, I have not had any cracking problems.........yet

i know this is a silly question, still: have you done that with an engine setup which before this modification was notorious to crack casings, and which now does not do this any more? you know what i mean, do you think it puts an end to the cracking there?

good ole edith wants me to add a little theory: do you think that the casing with the standard clutch cover tends to warp under load, that is: the round hole of the clutch cover goes oval and then round again, and it only does that so many times before the casing finally waves the flag and breaks at the weakest point, that is the hole there? if so a stiffer (cnc machined or so) cover, possible with an internal structure that makes it stronger, maybe a longer layshaft axle which goes through a lug in the cover even befor it accepts the nut would be a great idea. probably this has been tried in austria decades ago, maybe there is some information to be found there.

Bearbeitet 2. Oktober 2006 von amazombi

[OzOAP]

I have cracked two casings before building the third Malossi engine with the extra bolts, It has been ok for longer than the other two.

I dont know why they crack.

Dropping the clutch? jumping in/out of gear? to much power for an old Italian shopping bike engine?

I thought it was the side loading on a standard helical primary drive, pushing the laygear, but a mate of mine has broken casings using straight cut primarys

Hopefully the extra bolts will 'hold' the casing together at the weak point. I dont fancy doing another set if the TS one go (

[amazombi]

I have cracked two casings before building the third Malossi engine with the extra bolts, It has been ok for longer than the other two.

I dont know why they crack.

Dropping the clutch? jumping in/out of gear? to much power for an old Italian shopping bike engine?

I thought it was the side loading on a standard helical primary drive, pushing the laygear, but a mate of mine has broken casings using straight cut primarys

Hopefully the extra bolts will 'hold' the casing together at the weak point. I dont fancy doing another set if the TS one go (

i don't think it's the helical gears because, as you say, this has been known to happen to engines with straight cut gears also. you're definitely right with the remark about an overpowered shopping bike. but still, if it simply is caused by the lose gear cogs pushing the layshaft in the direction of the clutch thus elastically deforming the clutch hole untill the casing fatigues and breaks this could possibly be cured with a beefed up clutch cover and a longer axle which is then supported by the clutch cover also. this would be a possible bolt on solution for this problem.

@gravedigger:

keine ahnung ob du als alter bajuware das hier schnallst, denke aber schon. was meinst du wie aufwändig das wäre so einen deckel mit viertem auge und der ausrückwellendurchführung zu fräsen. die verlängerte achse in nitriert kann ich hier machen, denke ich. iss zwar für einen scheißmotor, aber wär das nicht einen versuch wert?

[NOSDavid]

PS: Mein "sinnloser" TS1-PX Motor:

Ich danke dem Mann aus Linz für diesen Beitrag im German Scooter Forum Supergeiles Teil :sabber:

Danke!!!

.... Mitte der 90er hat auch in Linz einer an so einem Projekt gearbeitet, wie ich öfter hörte. Möglicherweise ist das eh David's Motor....

Ja ich hab den Motor schon "länger" halb fertig im Keller liegen gehabt und dazu noch den Zylinder, Membrane etc. In Summe also brach liegendes Kapital!

Und nachdem mein Malle-Motor seinen Lagersitz Kulu-seitig ausgemergelt hatte, war es naheliegend endlich mal den Einser zu komplettieren.

Das dieser Umbau evtl. nicht an einen 250 KTM mit über 40 PS rankommt ist mir klar, aber in meinem Fall soll er ja den Malle ersetzen, bzw. verbessern.

Steuerzeiten und Brennraum sind ja den aktuellen Erfahrungswerten angeglichen.

Sobald ich Prüfstandwerte hab werd ich sie natürlich hier posten.

[amazombi]

die signaturbilder sind einen tick zu klein.

@oz

i have just thought a bit more about that, and actually one would not even need a longer axle but simply a special nut similar to the ones with which the si carb is attached to the casing. this would make it a real bolt on solution (if a solution it is).

[Lucifer]

Oz, your're bringing up very nice ideas and interesting solutions as well!

Nevertheless, I'm not sure, the reason for cracking is due to weak fixation of the clutch-casing: I've had casings myself, and seen others too, which have broken extensivly, but at neary all of them the clutch-casing was absolutely round and perfekt as a new one...!

One aspect common to all was a bad roller-bearing in the large primary gear, as well as a oval hole in the casing, sugesting, that the primary shaft worked the casings up (due to too much power ;) ). Another reason I have sorted out was overtightening of the axlenut, usually cracking the leftside casing very quickly after revisions...

As far as I've had a cnc-machined clutch, modified from a KTM-item, once in my RD1 Conversion, with a machined clutch cover too, I can hardly believe in amazombi's theorys! This engine exploded at about ~120km/h when the valve opened too quickly, catapulting me into the botanics.... Autsch! The engine was completely destroyed and hardly recognizable as a Vespa-one again: nearly everything was broken, but the clutch cover was intakt (insides destroyed by broken crank/clutch)!

Maybe it's worth to start a topic on its own dealing with these aspect, because lots of us will have had similar issues and probably controverse solutions.....

PS: welcome to the Forum, Oz! Please blame us with your nice work as often you can, we are always in need of inspireing inputs, and keep as on track with your T5-TS1....

[amazombi]

wußt' ich's doch. klar gab's das schon in österreich. echt jetzt, lucifer, allmählich fragt man sich schon warum du um das wohlverdiente internationale renomee so hart ringen musst.

@rest:

was meint die truppe? wäre ein deckel mit vier laschen, eine davon als verlängerung des nebenwellenlagersitzes mit einer mutter mit bund mit der die nebenwelle quasi verlängert wird und die last über einen massiven deckel etwas mehr verteilt wird ein ansatz eure gehäusereißerei in den griff zu kriegen?

[OzOAP]

Something like this through a modified clutch cover

Lucifer, I have not used the extra bolts to strengthen the clutch cover. They are there to hopefully hold together the main casing at the weak point.

Anyone on here own this one???

[amazombi]

Something like this through a modified clutch cover

Lucifer, I have not used the extra bolts to strengthen the clutch cover. They are there to hopefully hold together the main casing at the weak point.

Anyone on here own this one???

yes, that's it. and then the mother of all clutch covers, cnc machined and heavy as fuck to crown the thing.

nicely modified casing, mate. makes accesing the vital parts so much easier. most people don't seem to bother, but that's perfection in a nutshell, isn't it?

there was an engine at the anual stockach sprint meeting which exploded similar to the one on you picture. if memory serves me right the owner could not even bring himself to inspect it any closer, but turned round and walked straight to the bar instead. admirable style, and actually very much the only thing one can do after something like that.

[OzOAP]

[Lucifer]

@ OZ: I guess I have understood your intentions, to strenghten the casings around the hole! The clutch cover indeed won't need any strengthening...

But, don't you think, it would break too, if the casing deformes there really much into this direction. Usualy the hole for the axle becomes oval in direction of main-axle to carburettor, not to the clutch!

Maybe your secondary screws are a practicable solution, really stabilizing this sensible area, it should be tested anyway!

@ Amazombi: du hast scheinbar wirklich nur im Hirn, aber mußt du deine Minderwertigkeits.- und sonstigen Komplexe und Agressionen wirklich ständig hier im Forum ausleben?

Nimm mal zur kenntnis, daß lange vor dir und hoffentlich noch lange nach dir auch andere schon eine ganze Menge Dinge realisiert haben, von denen du keine Ahnung hast und auch nie haben wirst! Ich kann mich mit jedem freuen, der da etwas umsetzt, und seien es nur ein paar PS Leistungssteigerung, eine schöne Lackierung,...., von dir kommen ständig nur Provokationen, Beleidigungen, ....

Vielleicht ist es dir noch nicht aufgefallen, aber du trägst nur noch dazu bei, durchaus konstruktive Themen enden zu lassen, weil kaum einer mehr auf diesem Niveau diskutieren will!

[amazombi]

@ Amazombi: du hast scheinbar wirklich nur im Hirn, aber mußt du deine Minderwertigkeits.- und sonstigen Komplexe und Agressionen wirklich ständig hier im Forum ausleben?

Nimm mal zur kenntnis, daß lange vor dir und hoffentlich noch lange nach dir auch andere schon eine ganze Menge Dinge realisiert haben, von denen du keine Ahnung hast und auch nie haben wirst! Ich kann mich mit jedem freuen, der da etwas umsetzt, und seien es nur ein paar PS Leistungssteigerung, eine schöne Lackierung,...., von dir kommen ständig nur Provokationen, Beleidigungen, ....

Vielleicht ist es dir noch nicht aufgefallen, aber du trägst nur noch dazu bei, durchaus konstruktive Themen enden zu lassen, weil kaum einer mehr auf diesem Niveau diskutieren will!

iss mir noch nicht aufgefallen. danke aber für den hinweis. in bezug auf inhalsbezogene diskussion kann ich in der tat nicht umhin dir für deine erneut unter beweis gestellte sachliche distanz respekt zu zollen. das zusammen mit der immer noch ohne entschuldigung gebliebenen verunglimpfung der dame meines herzens bringt dich sicher, neben der tatsache dass du den zweitakter erfunden hast, weit nach oben auf meiner weihnachtskartenversandliste. was mich aber, jetzt mal im ernst, aufrichtig beeindruckt ist die tatsache dass sich ein ego von der größe des deinen in einem land von der größe österreichs unterbringen lässt. das ist sicher nicht einfach für dich.

[Lucifer]

@ Amazombi: Paranoia auch noch? Junge, auch dafür gibt's 'n Arzt!

Wie kommst du nur auf die wahnwitzige Idee, jemand könnte Wert daruf legen, von dir eine Weihnachtskarte zu bekommen? Bitte verschone mich.... :uargh:

OT off!

[amazombi]

@ Amazombi: Paranoia auch noch? Junge, auch dafür gibt's 'n Arzt!

Wie kommst du nur auf die wahnwitzige Idee, jemand könnte Wert daruf legen, von dir eine Weihnachtskarte zu bekommen? Bitte verschone mich.... :uargh:

OT off!

hmmm. ironie iss also auch nicht deine stärke. irgendwie auch nicht wirklich überraschend. wenn du den zeigefinger der linken hand knapp unter dem handgelenk auf die innenseite des rechten arms legst solltest du dort einen puls fühlen. schau auf die uhr und zähle mit. wenn er über 130 pro minute ist bist du gerade angepisst. das gute daran ist aber dass das zum einen ein hinweis auf noch vorhandenes restleben ist, zum anderen dass das auch einen trainingseffekt haben kann.

@rest:

fällt irgendwem noch was zu der verstärkerei ein? largeframe ist, wie schon mehrfach angemerkt, nicht meine baustelle. die gerissenen motoren die mir untergekommen sind sind aber, so ich mich nicht täusche von der nebenwellenaufnahme richtung kupplung gerissen. stimmt das?

Bearbeitet 2. Oktober 2006 von amazombi

[MiNiKiN]

First thing I wonder under which circumstances do these casing fatalities occur. Means engine speed, which gear, road surface.

*Lateral thinking mode ON*

I think, assuming from pictures of broken casings I have seen (my scooters haven't been affected yet due to lack of power), lateral forces at the layshaft should not cause this particular sort of breakage.

It might be (and this is nothing than a best guess to consider) that it is an unlucky addition of forces facing in z-direction (Fradial) caused by the tooth shape of the primary gear and high impact force peaks (Fbarrel weight ) due to the poorly supported barrel weight (rotational acceleration arising when riding over road roughnesses) - know where I am coming from?

What is the experience of Cosa-Casing users? Afaik these are strengthened in the weak areas.

Potential solutions:

Strengthen the area around the "backside" of the clutch, where the Cosa engines use to have thicker casings. This would need welding, therefore weakening the material on the other hand. No good!

Supporting the weight of the barrel towards the radial arm longitudinal part to enable the "weak area" to cope with the primary gear radial forces (Fradial) only.

To be discussed, please. Had some psychedelical red vine already :wasntme:

M

[OzOAP]

Anymore thoughts on why casings crack?????

[Juan Kerr]

Dunno mate but this is worth another pic.

[Johnny13]

Discussions going on in the "Wer hat welche Leistung"-Topic. But my technical english is crap, so i won't be able to translate...

[Truls221]

Anymore thoughts on why casings crack?????

Now short or easy answers to that.

But in general the aluminum that the casings are made of is very brittle. It means it wont deform much before it cracks.

So the question is how the casings are heat-threated after the forging? With aluminum occurs also something called ageing. Is there any connection between how old the casing is before it cracks? Maybe an after heat-threatment could minimize the problem?

If one stiffens one area the force that cause the deformation will usually spread to another area causing more deformation. It would be better to stiffen the whole casing.

It would be interesting to test the material the casings are made of to determine tensile strength...

[Johnny13]

Now short or easy answers to that.

But in general the aluminum that the casings are made of is very brittle. It means it wont deform much before it cracks.

So the question is how the casings are heat-threated after the forging? With aluminum occurs also something called ageing. Is there any connection between how old the casing is before it cracks? Maybe an after heat-threatment could minimize the problem?

If one stiffens one area the force that cause the deformation will usually spread to another area causing more deformation. It would be better to stiffen the whole casing.

It would be interesting to test the material the casings are made of to determine tensile strength...

I think stiffening the casing in the way amazombi said somewhere above will force the the forces, that cause the crack, to spread over a wider area and trough that make it less powerful (hope i made clear what i mean).

[MiNiKiN]

First it would be adviseable to open a separate Topic to discuss the cracking casings.

Second: the most apparent answer is that the casings where designed for 12hp barrels with a max. speed of 6000min-1. Putting a 30hp barrel onto it, reving to 10k might have been not considered by Luigi.

in the other referenced topic (Wer hat welche leistung..) some suspect the main shaft to bend and therefor causing stresses the casing can not cope with.

Others tend to believe in Amazombis theory, following OZ's modification to the Clutch cover, that a billet clutch cover with an additional bearing for the layshaft might be the solution as it would distribute the stresses more evenly.

They are now looking to find out more using strain gauges...

Cheers

M

[amazombi]

just to get that straight: i'm by no means sure that a beefed up clutch cover will actually stop the casings from cracking. that's a wish more like, mainly because making (or having them made) a stronger clutchcover should not be a problem whereas making a complete casing does cause a problem or two. i know it's a back to front argument sort of, still, i reckon it's worth a try.

@truls:

you are certainly right, the casting is rather brittle, and strengthening the casing there is likely to show the next week spot. there is a small chance that spreading the forces a bit may help though, and since this possible solution is actually at least half affordable i think it's worth a try.

[crazyduck68]

Anymore thoughts on why casings crack?????

i would try a high gear kit from polini or malossi, with the straight teeth, maybe this causes less side-forces.

[amazombi]

i would try a high gear kit from polini or malossi, with the straight teeth, maybe this causes less side-forces.

doesn't change much really, they still break.

[Schmied]

[semilla]

krass - und dann auch noch konsequent auf der falschen straßenseite... :plemplem:

:grins: